I've done flourishes in public before many times and obviously most of the time you get reactions from at least one of the spectators...very strange reactions actually....some laughed till they cant eat dinner no more :P ....some....tries to mess it up :angry: ....some will ask me to show them a magic trick :lol: ....and some....well....just try to ignore as if nothing happened <_< ....so whats yours?...strange reactions,commons reactions,unexplainable reactions?....just write it down :D !!!

Jarrett ^_^

hey... i don't know much flourishes... only a few... but it's enough to catch people's eyes sometimes... coz i tend to go to church while they're having music practice and i'll be the only one that's not in music team... so i'll take out my cards and just start fiddling and trying to learn flourishes i saw in some of the mmf videos...

yesterday i did the same thing as i do every week and my pastor looked at me and said something like "you can be the God of gamblers but don't forget who's your God"...

then when my friends finished music practice... one of them asked me to impress her... so i did "do as i do"... and she was shocked... jumping up and down... she took my deck tried to repeat what i did over and over(and obviously didn't manage to do it)... kept saying i conned her, etc etc...

those are the two "over-reacting" reactions i've had... the rest are basically things like "wah!! black magic! black magic!" and... "do again! do again!"... "teach me!! pleaseeeee... teach me teach me!"... "that's not impressive"... or... you know.. some people claim to know what you did and say things like "i saw that!"..."you think i'm so stupid ah?!"... another funny one i got was "this is what guys use to impress girls... you're a girl... no need to learn all this... just teach me so that i can impress girls"... lol

hehe sukyi, i was LMAO when i read ya post. Great to hear that u are already confident to do some tricks to ya frens, even as a beginner. Good thing its self working ones... then slowly u can go for the more sleight of hand card magic.

ok... erm abt flourishing.... well i been doing alot and been openly and casually flourishing in public for quite some time. Definitely get attention... as in people will look but most would just be silent abt it and just watch me manipulate the cards.

often, it is only when i look back at them and smile, then more chances for them to comment "ure good", "nice skill", "where u learn how to do that"... blah blah.... then sometimes i just say "u like what u see?"... then i show them some magic.

Also most of the time frens around me will just say "hey... this guy do magic... v good blah blah blah"... kinda praising me etc but i always say no la... im just a beginner.... coz u dowan spec to think ok this guy is pro... then they will be more attentive. I just be relax and do my stuff like a normal magician would. Simple card magic.

But yeah.... flourishing does get attention. I have no problem telling people that im skilled with cards. Some of u may not agree and say its better not telling or showing people u are skilled with cards, but to me if they know im skilled and i can flourish manipulate cards well... i think they will be more of "admire" my skills and magic. Well depends.. some people like to be clumsy and mess up and pretend duno how to shuffle and do magic. As a magician/flourisher i admire those that handle cards well when doing magic coz it shows that they've practiced and are skilled at thier art. hehe.

Cheers,
Brendan

I used to flourish a lot in bus, train, public space etc... but not anymore tho (or at least rarely).

I remember one of the reactions I got from flourishing was from this woman "wow... what a nice display of dexterity". I said thanks, and she said she's never seen anything like that before, so I told her it's a secret art practiced by a few magicians.

"You're a magician?!" said the woman.

"Yes" I replied.

"Like, do you do tricks and stuff?" she asked.

"Hmm, I don't know, but let me show you this weird thing" and I did a triumph routine with the story of me flourishing (in a nutshell, the patter went like how I droped cards when I practice and I just gather them without worrying which way the cards face, and with a snap they all go face one way).

Her eyes almost popped out lol, and the funniest (it was, if you were me :P) thing was that an image of David Blaine popped up in my brain. So I stayed calm and stuff. Not calm like DB, but more like... nyah.. miracle-happens-so-what kinda look.

I was gonna continue on to show her another trick, but judging from her reaction, I guess she hasn't gotten over that trick yet. And I don't feel like bombarding her with numerous tricks (yes, to me, when a trick is proven to be deadly, it leaves greater reaction if I just stop then).

Lesson learned: When done with the right attitude, right time, and proper timing, all it took was one trick (or effect) to floor them all.

I totally agree...

I tend to wanna show more sometimes coz my routines just keep on flowing... especially once my aces are out. LOL....

but yeah always give time for spec to absorb the magic... dont just rush to the next trick...

I did flourish for laymen several of times and their reaction was nothing but "erm...nice". I swear I will never do that again.

same case with kam ..

in ASIA CAFE .. playing pool.
half way playing (my fren snatch my cue and start playing with other guy)
i am bored n took out card n flourish and doing starry eyed suprise.

few worker in there start looking n ask me am i magician.
n i start perform .. n ppl start yelling and screaming ...
n i got my 1st paid show .. even just a 2ringgit ang pow from 1 uncle.
but i am happy enuf for the day.

pro of flourish
-get quick attention
-impress ppl
-gain respect

cons
-ppl will b more alert whenever u hold a deck(bad for magic)
-some ppl might ..showoff, LCLY there.

if u use it in magic then its more likely to get better reactions....

they may be quiet but inside "wow!"

i flourish b4 magic to get attention and after reaction from magic... i flourish again while thinking the next magic routine.... it gives specs sumthing to look at while i think of my next card magic effect.

When u flourish together with magic, dont it affect you? When u showing "top packet control" , they know you CAN control card.

nah... not only flourishers can control the card. Magicians are meant to control the cards too... everyone knows that, even laymen.... just that flourishers do them in more fancy way which is appealing IMO.

Depends really... ;)

I kinda have to disagree with this.

If folks know you are controlling the cards, it aint magical anymore. Its magic when you can't explain how its done. If you can, it aint magic. Its skill.
You're a skillful card player/gambler/cardsharp

I dunno, i feel when spectators said to me " wow, you got fast hands" or " wow you are skillful" it kinda says that I failed to convey the feeling of magic.


Sorry, I know I've mentioned this before in other threads...but I just thought its worth mentioning here again.

I mean Sukyi's post here kinda illustrated my point.

Note that he said God of Gamblers, not Magician or David Blaine or David Copperfield or anything anyone would associate with magic

Kamil's post also kinda gives a good illustration of what i mean.

I mean it's a good conversation starter, but it takes away some of the wonder you're magic could give.

All this of course is just my opinion.

Jeff, u do have a point but all im saying is whether u choose to flourish or not to flourish, good card handling is always a bonus in spec eyes. u feel great too as a magician if u can hand or so call "control" the cards well.

if u are sloppy and cant seem to shuffle.. people will think hmm this guy is a beginner but then if u can still deliver the effect.. then good la.. maybe its good to be sloppy or pretend u aint skill for a one-off effect. ie. do one trick and finish.

But if u are going to continue with ya card routines, then giving just magical effects with no eye candy is just going to be a lil boring IMO.

Effect is one thing but visually appealing is another. I dunno... i like visual things when come to card magic. But other magic ropes, coins, fire, mentalism, other props etc... the effects and presentation is the only way to give the impact.

By the way.... i do get the comments mentioned above ("wah.. ur hands v fast ah... so fast, how u change the card? ....skillfull blah blah") all the time... i like it... its good...in my books. They still were suprised by the effect and enjoyed the show. I get a kick when people appreciate my skills.

So magic and flourish dont mix?... neh....So all in all give it all a mix. We all have different styles... so it all depends on u.

i agree with this :)

All I'm trying to say is fluorish has its place and time.

Guys,

Dont argue...everybody has a different persperctive and have experience many type of reaction while performing....if you think you can help others with their problem they're facing....teach them in a friendly way....and if the person you're teaching dont agree with your suggestion do not bother....its their choice now....MMF is a place to share experience but not in a rude way....no need to apologise just try what the person has taught you and if you think its not good then do your own way!!!So good luck and have a magical day :lol: !!!

Jarrett ^_^

hehe.. jarret.... a lil 13 yr old teaching the oldies how to behave....

haha... no worries Jarret, Jeff and I are cool. He's a mentalism kinda guy and Im a card person. Thus, the differing point of view...

I respect and agree with some of his point but I cant help flourishing whenever there's a card on my hands... its just so automatic and natural thing for me to do... LOL :D

hi Jarret,

No ones arguing. Just friendly debate. :P
Doesn't hurt to debate and expand our points of view.

lol...mentalism and card magic doesnt mix alright lol Jeff Gan can I have your msn messenger e-mail address?

Jarrett

I can't help it but to chip in ...

What is the real definition of a magician?

What is the real definition of a magician in the mind of the lay audience?

A magician is not a card control freak.

Did you know that professional card sharps shuffle their cards sloppily? They don't show off!!

As a hobby you guys can drool over your achievement but being accepted as a 'magician' and respected as one by the public is another matter. I am not even talking about being a pro.

Read up your theory books, guys.

The bottom line is - BEING RESPECTED, ADMIRED, APPRECIATED & RECOGNISED.

And not with this kind of response - hey, I met a guy with fast hands. There are many people with fast hands too in other fields.

Brendan, who says flourishers can do it in more fancy ways? You haven't seen the best in magic yet? You just have too much prejudice because you like flourishes.

* Magicians have transformed a card fan into a big silk.
* Magicians have transformed a card spread into a dove.
* Magicians have transformed multiple card decks into flowers.

All these have been done visually withoutany form of cover or concealment.

This post is meant for everyone to think on a broader scale. You guys are thinking micro details only. What are the theory books for?

i showed my evo video on a big screen 2 days ago.. the audience were more than 1000 n people only go 'wow' when they c those color changes. to layman they wont understand what u r doing.. all they know is u r good in card handling..

here's a quote from matson.. again ;)

'Flourishes are more than showing-off to your audience. They are proof of one's dedication and professionalism as a performer. Flourishes are what may separate you from your uncle Joe doing a card trick. The more skilled performer will naturally receive more credit, recognition, and respect for his or her skills. A person sees the entertainer who performs the occasional flourish as being passionate about what he or she does and may be more apt to hire someone who is that professional. Your clients expect a magician with skill and experience.'

Go to Genting Highlands, Star Cruises, Orient Express, Niche Restaurants, Las Vegas, Monte Carlo, etc and see whether you guys will find jobs from them just from flourishes.

Try talking to the guys and lady magicians in themagiccafe.com forum and see whether your belief in the importance of flourishes hold water - by having a discussion on it.

I am not attacking flourishes - I can do flourishes with cards, coins, balls, knives, cups, wand, pens, cigarettes, lighters, etc that many people cannot do but I don't show off with them and say that it is the most important thing in magic and without it you will be unprofessional.

As a hobby - yes, you get a lot of self-satisfaction with the achievement you get - like when I combine a butterfly knife and a short stick and flourish them with 2 hands simultaneously - you feel good - fully agree to that.

But in the real world of magic it is a totally different world altogether. Sincere compliments and flattery is totally different - you are performing for FREE.

Try getting paid shows - then try getting higher fees for each performance - and you will find how cold and indifferent the market will react to you. It doesn't matter how good we are in flourishes.

When people have to bring out money to see you perform - your real test begins. They will start branding you as a children magic performer or a clown magic performer but not as a respected magician. WHY? You are taking money from that person and he/she is reluctant to give you his/her money.

Everyone will say WOW!!! or you are good - It's FREE! Are those response sincere?

Good character, pleasing personality, healthy self-esteem, good human interactive skills, good conversationalist, good grooming, knowledgeable in human psychology, and a strong foundation in the art of magic ..... is very important to being accepted and respected as a magician.

There's another thing here - performing for the western culture and eastern culture is also totally different.

I will only agree and support quotes written by experienced magicians that have performed more than a few thousand shows in all kind of environment - from average market to niche market (royalties, prime minister, kings and queens, etc) in different countries.

There are just too many books written with arm-chair-theories - and many of those things that are written are not proven - especially for the Asian culture.

You guys are just so caught up with the micro-magic without understanding the macro.

Dear James,

You’re right. We are not likely to get jobs just from flourishes unless our skill is like the Bucks or Tudor.

Magic and flourishes are totally different things to me. I read it somewhere they are like drums and guitars, both musical instruments but do very different things. When you combine them together you have an orchestral. I’m not sure if this is a good metaphor but it makes sense to me.

Yes. I agree with you flourish isn’t the most important thing in magic… simply because it is not magic. It is ‘flourishing’ and it stands on its own.

Of course in real world is totally different. When I perform I hardly show any flourishes because audiences just love magic. But… flourishes can spice up your performance. They are like great sounds to a movie – by the Dan and Dave. And that’s important.

About what they brand you is the matter of how you market your self-image. If you do magic to children or be a clown, I don’t expect people to brand me as a respected magician for that case. That’s what I think.

I like this a lot… “Good character, pleasing personality, healthy self-esteem, good human interactive skills, good conversationalist, good grooming, knowledgeable in human psychology, and a strong foundation in the art of magic is very important to being accepted and respected as a magician.”

Cheers,
Jeff

Flourishing does not mean having fast hands.

I never said flourishers do it in a fancy way. There's is no line drawn whether u are a flourisher or a magician.

Ok, now im just talking abt cards.. nothin else.. so coins, silk, dove or watever is out of the picture.

All im saying is it is a trend in card magic that people do it in a more flourishy way.

eg.. they flip the top card one handedly, or they do the Hot shot cut to reveal selection, or they not only produce their selecttion but also produced the rest of the 4 of a kind.

Again, im not discussing which is better flourisher or magician. both are good. Flourisher or magician. One can be a v good magician even though he cant flourish.

BTW, James I think the flourish u and I do are completely different IMO. I dunno.. i have not seen u flourish in terms of cuts so, i cant comment. All i know if ur into card productions, fanning and u are good at it... Im more into cuts.

And talking abt making money... yeah surely if u only do magic vs u only do flourish, the only do magic person will more likely to get a job here in msia or maybe throughout the world. Flourish to me is personal achievement. I dont do it for money... i do it because i get a kick out of doing flourishes.

Im just seeing card flourishing becoming a "thing" in the world of card entertainment. I dunno if u guys notice that or not.

I also like Matson's Quote:

'Flourishes are more than showing-off to your audience. They are proof of one's dedication and professionalism as a performer. Flourishes are what may separate you from your uncle Joe doing a card trick. The more skilled performer will naturally receive more credit, recognition, and respect for his or her skills. A person sees the entertainer who performs the occasional flourish as being passionate about what he or she does and may be more apt to hire someone who is that professional. Your clients expect a magician with skill and experience.'

All in all like i said u can be clumsy if u want to be, but i personally love seeing people doing card magic with style and allegance. Eg. Jean Pierre Velerino. Style and flourishy or another word smooth!

Cheers,
Brendan

sorry, I don't have a msn address.

almost reach climax when reading healthy debates over flourish / magic.. THEN, your mesg about this.. potong steam.. POTONG STEAM!!!! .. hehehhe just kidding bro...

James Tong, the post is inspiring.... thx...

OK.

From what I've seen, many people who do their stuff with flourish are almost always giving out the hints that the person is going to control the card when he does magic. From the story I gave, after I did all those cuts (which by the way, was not meant to show off, I happened to find an empty spot and did my stuff until the lady sat right in front of me) and flourishes, my magic was NOTHING like my flourishes in term of its speed or complexity. There was no one handed deck flip, do an armspread for choosing a selection, or "okay let me give the deck a couple of cuts to lose the card (proceeds to sybil)" . I could easily incorporate many flourishes moves into my act, but as Jeff nicely pointed out, there's always a time and place for everything (and in this case, flourishes). Hence, before I even started doing the magic with her, I pointed out that flourishes is an art/hobby that's practiced by magicians. I never claimed that flourishes is a PART of magic. It can, and it may be so, but it's not my flavor (there are many types of flourishes, and I'm talking about the card cutting stuff). Then I moved on to do my magic which involved no fast movement (I always abide by Vernon's "large movement covers the smalls ones"), which gave the reaction she showed.

There's also another kind of magicians who do their stuff sloppily. While many are doing this on purpose, the most notable one being Lennart Green, there are even MORE magicians (and many of them are beginners) who THINK they do it on purpose so they could make the spec thinks they can't handle the card well to give the effect even more credibility. Often, this results in cheesiness of the effect i.e. the effect lost its beauty and the sloppiness has no reason for it to be there. In Lennart Green's effects, his purpose to do things sloppily is to show that the cards are mixed and such. But sadly, many magicians do it "wrongly" in a sense that it's now not only sloppy, but messed up and doesn't add up to the effect other than showing that the magician hasn't practiced much yet.

So what does this have anything to do with flourishes? I'm starting to see the "flaws" in the logic many flourishes have given. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE seeing D&D stuff and you guys all well know that I flourish (check out my Nightshift video --shameless plug!!--). But mixing up magic and mad flourishes is pretty much like a detective showing his revolver; everything's supposed to stay under the hood without giving your audience a hint of what you're capable of (and what you do). Yes, a little and senseful flourishes are always nice i.e. a four ace productions prior to an NFW effect, but losing a card by doing WTHHTS four times is just overcooked. I guess the point I'm trying to say is to do things very smoothly, do it Madrid style B) Ascanio's style. Make your magic beautiful. Not fast, not puzzling, not "sloppy", not any of those, but make it beautiful and worthwhile. After all, you've taken your spec's time, so you might as well show a beautiful one.

Anyhoo, everyone should read James post, it was a good one. I might add that it's also a world of difference when you perform to laymen and to pros.

And another thing, just so many of us flourishers would remember: you guys remember the first time you watched the Tudor's Gen X trailer? When I first started magic and watched that, I thought it was all just one series of moves. Try to keep that in mind ;) that if a magician thinks that way, what about laymen?

Second that.

Would you guys stop it...you peoiple are like offending each other....yes....its a hot topic....but this topic ic full of offends here and there....I just want some of your spectators reactionyou people saw and experinced before....I'm not trying offend you guys in a way....just stop it and just write down the experiences you people have seen or else....I dont wanna say this....but just dont write down a topic in this post....thats it....

Jarrett ^_^

afoi dude,

You need interludes occasionally in life.
"pesanan dari penaja" so to speak ;)

Kamil,

Thanks. I'll remember this.

Jarett, will you stop over pretending? Obviously you do not understand. Don't pretend to understand. You want to talk in this topic? Try to understand or just shut up and let them be. AND I HATE YOU! RAAAAWR!!!! SO SHUT UP OR I WILL TURN YOUR CARDS INTO AN UGLY BUNNY!!

And my thoughts? Flourish for money.... hmm... that will depend... on the future... Pure flourishes show though definitely cannot (unless you're already reputated). Need some magic and manipulation mixed in.

I purposely picked and tickle you guys/gal's brain to see where you stand in the depth of magic. I got the answer and thanx.

Jarett, this is a healthy exchange of opinions on the depth of magic and not an arguement. No one is quarelling here.

Thanx for my confirmation and bye everyone - it's been a nice time contributing here.

Jeff Gan knows what I mean.

Hey, u posted as the same time as me! It's magic!



....or a coincidence. :D

You really know how to turn twist the whole scenario. Bravo!

Guys.... is false cut a flourish? just wondering ya opinion.

Its "stupid/pointless" to do WTHHTS when u want to show people u trying to loose the card in the deck. That's too much flourish to loose a card in the deck. LOL.

Rather than doing the obvious D. undercut, why dont do a more convincing yet fancy cut? Eg. Trinary cut that Oz uses a lot.

When i say people using flourish in magic does NOT mean those long fancy cuts u see on vids.

Do u know that hot shot cuts, fanning, F.cuts ...all this are also known as flourish?

Only a tiny pinch of flourish is needed spice up one's magic.

Thanks for ya input James and everyone elses. Its good to read and hear ya opinions. Just tat i think we got a bit over confused abt the flourish used in magic.

Have a great day!
Brendan

so this is a test?? :blink: lol..

what r card flourishes?? watch these people..

http://www.dananddave.com/downloads/trailers/spring_jam.html

http://www.youtube.com/w/?v=Cd2oq-0e4Ko

to me card manipulation like jeff mcbride's style (card fans n productions) isnt the trend anymore.. no one likes to see or do those kinda stuffs these days from what i observed.. n i observed from all the best flourishers around the world :ph43r:

so, u mean.. you do Hotshot, FAN a deck, and those "tiny" flourish , to grab their attn , while thinking of next routine? ok, then I think I agree, "a little flourish" spice up the magic effect.

What I trying to point out is, when you're doing some fancy flourish to grab people's attention, you ARE telling people, you CAN , and you WILL control card very well.

"fancy" flourish is good, but IF it comes along with magic. I think it spoilt both.

I don't see how this squabbling will improve anyone's flourishes or magic.

See? Even 30210162 learnt to STFU and practice.

lol.. long time no c 30210162. i miss u~ :wub: im not gay..

yes.. this is hurting the flourish n magic community.. ;) we should be supportive to others.. not testing peoples' knowledge.. ;)

yup, jeff said it all .. :D

again flourish or not is just personal preference
u do it .. u bear the consequences (spectator build up walls n bla bla bla)
u dont then u just dont ..

IMHO, flourish just another form of art.
u will either fall in love with it ..
or just walk pass and say : cool ..... n continue walking :)