Greetings guys!

There will be an event via Gallery Izu (exactly opposite KL Convention Center) on the 2nd f April 2006 (sunday). This event is called "Scoop on Books". Its part of a reading campaign for kids age 5-8 years old. Numerous publicity exposure with celebrities and foundations will attend. This event will have certain media coverage. This event is organized by the final year Public Relations Degree students from Faculty of Communications and Media Studies of Universiti Teknologi Mara, Shah Alam. It is part of their final year project.

The organizers have approached me and asked if i can gather some magicians or mimes to let loose on that event and entertain parents as well as kids during the event. They requested a full suit magicians and mimes to add us to the carnival ambience that day. I have to make it clear that they will not pay as their event is also a charity event.

If any of you guys are interested to come and polish up ur skills in kids magic, do pm me and we can arrange something. This will be a good exposure and networking as some of these parents might want to hire any of you for future events. Think about it ya!

if any of you guys are not busy, i suggest that you guys spend sometime and mingle around. Remember that this is just a public service. but who knows what tomorrow brings right?

Time please ...

Also, what do you mean by full suit magicians.

Thanks

tux, top hat and magic wand?
or
Robes and Pointy Hat with staff?

Jeff Gan"dalf" the Grey

Paul,
time i will get back to you for the exact timing but as they informed me, it will be a whole day event. probably starts at 9 am.

Jeff,

They requested a full dress up magicians or mimes. Top hat and black suit and white handgloves for magicians. But if you have merlin outfit together wih robe and staff in mind why not? Also dust white face, black and white stripe long sleeves shirt with suspender for mimes. As long as the kids know that you are a magicians by just looking at the way you are dressed its fine by them.

they are hoping that our presence there could live up the ambience there as the kids will be reading books mostly fairy tale books and what no.

i hope you guys have a good idea on how to come about. Again, if you guys are interested pls PM me.

Those that knows sponge balls magic or coin magic or lil gimmick magic would be suited for this. Kids dont understand card tricks do they? lol.

A clown magician would suit them best IMO.

How old are these kid BTW?

i agree with u b :)
card magics dont work well with them.
btw, as mentioned in my first post, the kids are age 5-8 yrs old :) so, go figure :)

so far ewin propose a charity yoyo show which i think its cool. but it all depends on the descetion of the organizer:)

The problem is that Sunday is my busiest day, especially morning. Late afternoon may be ok for me. But I think kids would have kayoed by then :-)

Curiously, how many of you actually have an outift as decribed / requested?

"Top hat and black suit and white handgloves for magicians. But if you have merlin outfit together wih robe and staff in mind why not? Also dust white face, black and white stripe long sleeves shirt with suspender for mimes."

nope...don't have that

I'll be there seeing you guys performing, but i wont be there performing~ :P
no outfit~

I forgot to mention that I have no such costumes / oufit.

But it seems to me that if the organisers want free service, they would have to lower their expectations in terms of costumes.

What would go big is someone doing balloon sculpting ... but they have to at least offer to cover the cost of balloons. My 2 cents

Yes balloon sculpting is the way to go for Kids....

I think a clown balloon sculpter would get more attention than a magician there.. welll i dunno.... children just wont really understand what magic is all abt...

Yeah... since its a free service, the organisers shouldnt be so particular abt our dressing.

For me.. i like casual, street style... magic...

U dont have to prove ure a magician by the things u wear.

But again, we're dealing w kids.. "now u see it, now u dont.. kinda magic"

To all the clowns, this is ur opportunity i guess..

hmm... you got me thinking there. by the way, i was told the event time is at 2pm till 5pm 2nd April (sunday)

i will forward the costume issue to the organizer. :)

I will be out of town on april 2 But i am fully supportive towards charity programs.
Keep up and way to go....

This is totally shameful. Performing a magic show and losing money.

There is a cost to everything.

The act of driving to the event venue has a cost (petrol, parking, etc). The consumables you use like the flash paper, balloons, ropes, etc has a cost too. After the performance, sending your costume to the cleaners or even washing yourself has a cost too.

I have heard from the local magic fraternity so many times that they cannot charge a high price for their performances - the complain and complain but nothing could be done.

There are two sides to everything -

On one side is what you guys are doing - passionately involved in magic - a good thing.

On the other side is the market perception towards magic as a whole. Business is a cold hard game - you have to accept that. In business - anything that is free is taken advantage of and will not be respected.

So if you guys go around performing FREE shows everywhere - the first impression on you has already been set. You guys are free - why bother - use them first. There will not be any value set on your performances.

So the next time you go around for paid performances you will bump into these marketing people (already have a not too good impression on you) and you ask for a fee - what do you think will happen?

Magic in Malaysia has not gained the full respect it deserve. Why? Giving free shows KILLS the respect for magic. Even if the show has no quality, will the marketing people complain? It is free anyway. The audience are the ones that will judge magic and if they see the so called quality of the show - they will have a bad perception of the art of magic.

Like I said - there is a cost to everything and giving a free show means you are losing money.

All of you are so cost conscious when ti comes to buying magic items and you are so careful even in buring a piece of flash paper but when it comes to a free show you will do your best and that means more costs there. Are you not losing money?

I don't understand it.

On one hand you guys want the market to respect you and the art of magic and on the other hand you do things that kills the respect for the art of magic.

This is not a thing to be taken lightly. You may not be performing now. One day people will ask you to perform for a public event and then you will face the reality of the marketing people .... when they have to pay you ... let's see how they would treat you.

As a fellowship and with one voice you guys can set the market rate for magic performances. But giving it FREE ... let us see what the repercussion in the future will be.

James's post is very thought provoking ... Thanks

true...
u guys should think twice now b4 doing it...

Just a side not that may be of interest.

I don't charge for my performances ... but I still mostly get "paid" - grateful organisers often give me some cash as a gift for my time and effort (think honoraium) :D
so ... I don't lose money in that sense even if magic is a hobby. I use the money from such performances to buy more magic stuff.

And sometimes (it does happen, though not as often as I would like :P ) people give me some money to buy magic as they appreciate the performance and realise that it is not cheap to do magic well, especially since I graciously don't charge! ;)

But then again, I "lose" a lot of money when I buy too much stuff. :(

But I suppose my situation is kind of unique ...

Just some questions, why don't you charge? what is the reason for you not charging your performance?

Jeremy

I am a pastor by vocation. While I am paid a salary for the work I do, the context is a bit unusual. For me to charge would be like taking on a part-time job (moonlighting) and that would be for me not a good idea as it might compromise the integrity of the things I do. The work I do is basically helping people (for free).

Also, the magic I do is for what is known as gospel magic. I am into entertaining of course but to charge might give the perception that I am doing what I do for financial gain. Magic is not my bread and butter. I know professional magicians / entertainers who do gospel magic for a living so if the group is big and I know can afford it, I push them to hire the professionals as magic is their bread and butter. I am not against charging and I think magicians should in principle (James Tong and others has posted on this) so that magic is not made cheap. There's a saying that goes "A labourer is worthy of his wages".

I also don't charge to guard myself against abuse and greed even if I could use the extra cash! In my line of work, this is important ^_^

Howver if a gift is given by those who appreciate the high cost of my labour of love, I am happy to receive and use it stictly to upgrade my magic skills and effects.

An example of abuse! I once prayed for a boy who was disturbed by a spirit. Family was grateful for the boy's "healing" and wanted to pay me for my services. Let me just say that they had in mind a 5 figure payment! If I wanted to, I could make a lot of money from grateful people I help in their times of need! For the record, in case it isn't obvious. I did not take a cent! :P

This is also why I avoid big groups that have money to be generous (besides the fact that i am not that good as yet... must be postive! :lol: ) - can't get sucked in by greed and lose my life's focus.

I hope this helps (though it probably makes things moere confusing! :lol: )

BTW, If magic is your life focus, then the above doesn't apply! :D

Before I began, I would like to say 1st that with all respect to the previous posters and their professionalism and experiences, I disagree on a few points.
And to clarify, magic to me is just a hobby I take too seriously and I am not professional in any sense when it comes to the magic business.

My interpretation of the previous discussions is that by doing free magic performances, the value of the art is depreciated. And, perhaps more importantly, it will become very difficult to ask for paid gigs later.

But if look at performing arts in general, from bands to theater to choirs to drama to singers, I think almost all of them does some kind of free shows some point or another. Especially those that hasn't gained recognition for their acts, e.g. new bands, singers.
For those with aspiration of going pro or semi-pro with their magic acts, performing, I thought, is a very good way to gain exposure and experience, even if there's very little or no pay involved. Because without exposure and experience, nobody would engage your services, but if nobody engages you for your act, you cannot gain exposure and experiences.
And in this case, they are doing it for charities, which I think makes it even better.
It's a charitable act, doing something positive which I think is a great thing to promote. And at the same time, they are gaining experience and exposure. Someone who is at the function, sufficiently impressed, might want to engage them.

I am farmiliar with 2 rock bands in Singapore, some of you might have heard of them, The Suns and Ronin. The Suns are my friends and they have been a full time band for the past 2 years, who has been enjoying tremendeous success in Australia, particularly Melbourne and Sydney. Ronin is a Singapore band who has been enjoying success on the airwaves and even has a couple of MTVs out with MTVasia. They are not exactly famous yet but they have in their own ways enjoyed moderate success and recognition.
But they too do quite a bit of free gigs now and then, especially in the singapore school circuit. They just go perform for free for the school. It's both to promote themselves and the music they play. At the same time, they get lots of bookings for paid gigs, which they are doing professionally as a living.
I am pretty sure that events and media people know the difference between a charity and a commercial act and will not insist that they don't charge for the commercial gigs.

Myself, I'm an IT developer by profession.
During my course of work, I've done a few projects in my free time at no charges because they are for small time charities; system maintances, simple animation production, and even a small website.
These are services I provide professionally, but in these cases, I do it as a charitable act for the causes I feel for.
Am I afraid that someone who wants to engage my services professionally will be reluctant to pay me because of the free work I did? I really don't think so. In fact, I've gotten professional contacts from the other volunteers while i did some of these things which later translate into business for me.

Some might say that if everyone does magic for free, then the magic will be cheapen and professionals cannot survive.
In my limited knowledge of economics, i think that cannot happen, at least not in a damaging way.
Think about it, nobody can go around doing magic shows for free all the time. A person has to make a living yah?
If he's just doing it for fun, then it's not a professional service. They cannot be as available as the organisers would like them to be. They are not as commited to giving a good show as a full time professional would. And they are not liable to the organisers to the point that they can just decide that they don't want to show up on the day itself. And chances are, they will not be as good as the professional who spends all their time and energy on their magic.
If you are an events coordinator and you have an event, would you use a professional or someone who does it for fun?
It's simply different league. The hobbyists shouldn't be able to affect the professionals.

I am reluctant to think that by doing something for free sometimes, especially in this case of charitable works, it will diminishes the value of magic, or make it more difficult to get paid next time.
I think most people understands the difference between a voluntary charitable gig and a commercial gig, especially events and media people.

I think it's great that the guys that they what did they did. As a chance for them to test out their routine, and I believe a strong part of it is, also because it's for a good cause.
I think they ought to be congratulated for their efforts rather than be put down for doing a good work. Kudos guys B)


And that's my humble 2 cents worth.


Cheers

Let me add on a bit more to clarify.

I think you should charge if it is for a commercial performance. If a compnay, a hotel etc wants your services, then why do it for free? They can surely afford to pay and talk of giving you free exposure is highly questionable IMHO. I think it is more likely a subtle way to exploit a young budding magician.

But if it is for charitable organizations (non-profict, volunteer organizations etc), I think that is a different story.

There have been times where I have been given an honorarium for speaking but give it back because I appreciate the thought but I think they need the money more than I do. Similarly, for those who cannot afford it, I think it is a privilege to help out and do magic (and balloon sculptures) to spread a little bit of joy and make a loss :D It's worth it....

I've read in the Cafe sometime back a good way of performing for charitable organisations and not make it free is like this :-

Charge your usual rate and in return donate all profits, excluding your costs (dry cleaning of tux, flash paper etc ) back to the organisation.

That way, you performed your usual rates, and you also donated your earnings to charity and publicity (if you decide to milk it) to boot (both party wins)

Just thought I'd share it here.

A few things to clarify here.

What is charity? What does it mean by performing a free magic show for charity?

In my books - charity means investing your time, effort and money to help the under-privileged that really need help.

Doing something that get marketing mileage out of it is not charity - there is an agenda behind.

Yes - I perform FREE MAGIC SHOWS too - even I am a professional BUT... I do it in a different way.

Every year I will organise 3 charity events - and do my part of the working in giving back to society.

I will select a very unforunate orphanage that corporates do not even want to take a look at in sponsorship - usually those out of town - and I will organise a half hour performance for the kids.

In addition I make sure that after the performance - they get to enjoy a very good party -get the best variety of food they had no opportunity to taste.

After that I make sure that every one of them will get the following presents from me - school stationeries like pen and pencils, color pencils, etc for their education, and depending on their gender they will each get a toy of their dreams. And finally each of them will also get an 'ang pow' from me (you really don't know when they need money). And the orphanage will also get a round of contribution from me like cash, the necessities in running the place and of course food and drinks (Milo, sugar, milk, biscuits, etc)

The other two places I select are 'spastic homes' and 'old folks homes' - and I do the same contribution there too.

Please bear in mind that these events organised by me DO NOT have any form of publicity at all. My contributions to them are from my heart.

Because of this act -many of my friends started joining in to contribute their part - they would give their own ang pow, their own gifts, etc. Nothing passes through my hands.

Most imortantly I do not even make use of these events to deduct my taxes.


So if any organisations and corporations say they want to organise events for charity - I don't believe a word they say. Their charity is not exactly charity. They will collect money, contributions and sponsorships and then deduct the expenses and what-nots and the balance (we don't know how much left) is given to charity. And they will also take advantage of tax deduction too.

In my book - charity comes from the heart.

In fact my next charity event will be an orphanage again. Usually my apprentices, disciples and students enjoy these events very much.


In terms of performing FREE shows - yes you can do that for practises so that you get exposures but not to the extend where you are taken advantage of.

Professionals in any industry can afford to do free services for companies or events because when they are spotted they get a chance to get more businesses. That is called referral marketing or riding on publicity.

But for magic newbies where I see a lot of comments about their budget in buying magic items - how can you expect them to do a good show.

Of course you can also say that you can perform effects with sleight of hands but again I see comments like I don't have enough time to practise.

So we have a chicken and egg situation here - want to perform but do not have time and money to invest in a show.

But if the performer were to be given an ang pow as a token of appreciation - at least you can cover the cost of flash papers, and consumables.

At least work as a group - let people know that there is a cost for a performance. They must at least cover the cost for the performer.

Performing real charity shows organised my MMF and with contributions from the families involved is real charity. Events organised by companies are not charities.

I own an event management business and have many close friends from the same industry and guess what - many so-called charity shows help these businesses to make a lot of money. Is it charity then?

So if you guys want to perform for exposures and experiences, why not as a group (meaning the MMF fellowship) organise these real charities and be blessed by it.

There are many orphanages in the outskirts that are so neglected and really have no funds - they deserve our help. The children deserve our help. All of us are considered very blessed as compared to them.

Conclusion - I am not disagreeing on you guys giving free shows but at least do it with a cause - we must not forget about life in general and the people in need.

Ahhh....i see your point now James :) And I agree with you.
There are charities, and there are "charities". For those farmilar with Singapore's current affairs, it's much like the NKF saga. B)

In some charity events, the beneficiaries are directly those that really need it.
Yet it's so true that there are many big scale "charitable events" that is much more of a marketting and branding exercise by some companies.
Your concern is that people performing for charitable events should be discerning enough to recognise the difference and not be taken advantage of.

In that sense, i fully agree with you. If someone is organising a "charitable event" to benefit some questionable "needy" and is giving away cars in lucky draws and high budget organisation and still ask for free magicians, that is pretty dodgy and the performer should think twice before doing it for free.
So while the heart may be in the right place, discernment is definitely necessary to strike the balance.

Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. B)

DITTO!!! Am in agreement! Now the trick is to figure out which are worthy causes

Even with some churches (not putting down my fellow Christians, just stating a fact) don't get this. Just because they are a church (non-profit etc) a small few expect free stuff and service. My response is - if you can afford it (and many can), then be willing to pay for the service, even if it is for charity!

Hence why I avoid bigger churches, organizations and just do my bit for smaller lesser known churches, organizations people groups (I work with the Orang Asli) and even countries (Cambodia) etc. Fact is, they are also normally very appreciative. So the reward itself is there in the smiling faces of the people!

One other thing. I like James sugestion that MMF organize (or participate) as a group in such things. Makes good sense that since most of us has limited skills and props (except those who are into it as pros or semi-pros like James, samuel, Aloy etc and .... Isaac? soon? :o ) together it would be a lot less stressful :P

Though to be fair to James and Samuel who are so busy, we can always leave them out as performers (but get them to advise)

I really totally agree with James, companies that do charity shows are really 'udang di sebalik batu'.

Their main motive is just for publicity and using less fortunate people as a stepping stone. If it is really doing charity, there is no point to publisize and tell everybody what you are doing.


and Paul,

Yeah I know what is gospel magic and thanks for so patiently explaining to me. :lol:

After much reading about the politics in the response, i would just say that i regret announce such opportunity. Please spend time to think outside the tangled politics and read my rebuttle as i am quoting my first post:

Since its a final project, it means these students does not have enough fund to pay for the service that any of you would be interested in. However, as i mentioned in my first post, :

The organizers are working closely with Smart Readers kids as part of reading campaign to cultured reading habit among youngsters. This event is also in support of Malaysian Association for the Blind to raise awareness in helping the blind. basically its just a small event done by one class from uitm in order for them to complete their degree program. Its their final year program. Nothing big. Nothing to make it as a magic-political issue. basically if u guys want to take this opportunity to show some of y'all talent and drop your cards, this would be a good opportunity.

They just asked me if there are any friends of mine who wouldn't mind (mark my words-wouldn't mind) to go around and show some stuff to the kids during the event. No stage nor any tentative itineary for the magic show. basically just mingle around and do stuff thats all.

And no, there's no udang disebalik batu. that is why i mentioned in my post that should u have any interest, do PM me and not bash me like this. Its how you would want to thake ur magic/ or skill. u decide. Some might want to polish their skill..some might not. the event still gonna happen.

The organizers just thought i could do them a favor thats all...after all, we could strt to cultured magic interest in these kids.

i hope the moderator could just lock this topic before further political theories could tarnish the simplicity of this favor and exposure opportunity...

Woah! sorry man, this was never meant to bash you at all. My depeest apologies if this is what it looked like on my part. :(

I think the thread discussion just got bigger than your original request. Your motives were never in question. And your context speaks for itself. Again, sorry for any hurt caused you.

yo Nasrum, we are not even saying you, if you read my post properly, I am saying companies, not you....please don't take it personally.

The discussion is growing into companies that use charity as a means to publisize their company. Do read all the posts again and you will know we are not bashing at you....

:lol: :P :P

A discussion can flow into many other topics and sub-topics. Currently this topic is swinging into another topic.

To help in the management duty of the moderators - we do not want to have too many threads talking about similar subjects - so we prefer to let the discussion flow from one to another.

Did you see Jeff Gan's eyeballs currently - the last I saw was his eyeballs are popping out halfway with ugly arteries, veins and whatnots oozing out of his eye sockets -- WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED TO JEFF GAN!!!!!

He spent so much time moderating the forum threads and merging topics together - that chore tortured his eyes - let's help his eye heal back by helping the discussion to flow from one similar topic to another.

Jeff - I'm just pulling their legs - guys - just joking - but on the other hand when you guys meet up check Jeff Gan's eye ball to see whether he is fully healed ;) :!!: :blink:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

my eyes, the look like :!!:

Don't worry your eyes too much, I am sure Nasrun's cool about the matter B)