I am a internationally reknown professional, performing illusionist and have been so for the last 3 decades .... and who is also a proud Malaysian. I also own and run The Magic Annexe, a non-profit club dedicated to the furtherance and improvement of Magic as an Artform.

I write this as an open letter to the owner(s) of this forum to express my utter disgust about the way certain policies that you, the owners of this forum, uphold which continue to tarnish my beloved craft and now to the extent of bringing down the intregrity of my country, Malaysia, in the international arena!

Once again, the ugly head of unscrupulousness rears up....individuals (and those who support this through their own greed) who are hell bent on profiteering from our time honoured craft have succeeded in dragging the integrity and honour of being a Malaysian through the mud!

Plenty has been said and bandied around and this halabaloo came to my attention a day or two ago and I am truly ashamed of the way this entire episode has been handled.

Firstly, this is a forum supposedly dedicated to the fellowship of magicians in Malaysia. How, and why the hell then did you, the owners, allow crass commercialisation of the forum by obvious profiteers. Are you getting advertising revenue or commission from sales from these dubious businessmen? Where and what is the logic in allowing this to happen in the forum? What 'fellowship' did you see in supporting this commercialisation?

In actual fact, YOU allowed this issue to escalate to the level that it has gotten. These people exploited you and this forum to achieve their own ends with absolute and total disregard to the ethics and integrity of our artform. In fact, to actually read that after having publicly stating in this forum that this one individual "has little or no respect" for the ethics of our artform, yet you continue to actually entertain his platitudes. This totally....totally baffles me!

WHERE IS YOUR STAND??? Are you so spineless that you have to continue to debate this issue on a public forum? The simple answer would have been to delete his posts and kick the offender off the forum at the initial stage and that would have put paid to the issue. Hey, you do not respect my craft???? Then get the hell off my turf and go somewhere else to pander your rubbish!! If we ourselves cannot stand up and respect our own craft, how much then can we expect from those outside - clients and the audience alike.

YOU OWN THE FORUM !!! No one has the right to compromise the integrity of your forum, that is of course if you care enough about our artform! Freedom of speech, be damned...especially in this case. You come into my house and insult me and I am supposed to keep silent and let you behave badly?.....Come on! Let common sense prevail....please.

The guy is a crook and is doing something that is clearly morally wrong. The very fact that he has researched the subject carefully, sidestepped morality and exploited the legal loopholes, clearly underscores this. This was done with CLEAR AND PREMEDITATED INTENT.

The ONLY reason...read that again...ONLY REASON....that he came to this forum was to make money from us magicians!!!! Or are you too dense to even see this! This is his primary and sole motivation...not the love of the craft...or to help you magicians out....come on...even you cannot be that stupid! The repeated quotes about "Nice guy" etc. etc. is so ludicurous that it is laughable!!! The plain and undeniable truth.....he just wants to make money from magicians....so he came to this door and squatted on this site.....and YOU allowed and encouraged it! So, you as as much at fault as he is!...and you helped him advertise his wares and allowed your forumites to patronise his "revered services".

Bottom line, you are the fence for a thief! Unwittingly or otherwise! Accessory after the fact.

Secondly, the forum is called Malaysia Magic Fellowship. Put on your thinking caps for just one minute and put 2 and 2 together....what in God's name did you think that the world was going to associate your condoning this action with? As it is, and with healthly support from a lot of members from this forum I might add, we Malaysian magicians are being systematically blacklisted by the international magic community. Open you eyes and read the posts on your own forum for heaven's sake. For some shameless reason, there seems to be pride in justifying / defending / supporting the actions of piracy (let's call a spade a spade...to quote a popular phrase!) for the sake of a few measly dollars. We, magicians, have now sold our national pride for a few ringgit! Go ahead fellow Malaysians, now feel proud! Hurrah! This would fall into the same category of having pride in getting on the MAGIC FAKERS list. (That alone is a clear revelation of the character of this 'nice' guy!)

Please guys....crawl out from under the shells that you seem to live under and come to terms with the reality.

A point of distinction - We magicians are the only creative performance artform to have the dubious honour of bringing such shame to our nation through our actions!!!

What continues to amaze me is the fact that the owners and the moderators of this site seem to be totally powerless to make strong and morally right decisions in support of our artform. How shameful!

As this is not the first time this has happened, I now seriously question your integrity, your motives and your judgement!

A HUGE apology to the artform is in order here!...and please, please have the b***s to take a stand or two and put an end to this.

That's all the tirade you are going to get from me. The ball is in your court. Make us proud by getting off your fannies - do some damage control and set some strict, enforcable policies in place to do the right thing...morally....before it gets even worse!

Please allow magic in Malaysia to at least have a decent, respectable presence.

Happy magic-ing!

I don't really understand, will go through few times.

Since when Ma'sia's magic being good or bad?
Since when Ma'sia been proud of theirself [When EON take over lotus I little bit proud or **joking** the piracy rate Ma'sian good in reversed engineering *crack**hack*]?
Do you think all Ma'sian been smart enough in everything?
I think I can tell you I am the first idiot.
People have the right to do what they want. :P
People will learn from mistake, I think it is normal.

Nice to have a renowned international illusionist in our mist.

I will go through a few time later and let you have my comments.

Bob

I will get back this too!

Andrew

Looks like this open letter is targetting at a certain magician or businessman in the magic industry.

I always feel that if you don't like a certain magician (which is quite normal), just ignore him and get on with your own business. You will be a better person.

No one has the right to tell the moderators and his team of MMF what to do. It's just like teaching someone to run his business. Just don't participate, and start your own forum and if you are respectable enough in this field, you will have people supporting you.

We are no saints, and if a magician can get an opportunity to make money from what he knows, it is just normal. Whether from coporates or individual.
Their family's livelihood may depends on it.

"A few measly dollars" may mean alot to some. In own society, you have to be crafty to survive and playing politics is part of our life.

That person you referred as a crook, to me is a dammed good businessman. If moral exists in our society, we do not need to have laws and regulations to govern us.

Human beings are quite intelligent enough to knows who is exploiting them. If they are suckered, words will spread around and in this small industry, everyone will know who he is and he will be kept at pole length.

I have no quarrels with any magician all my life. They do what they like and I do what I like. We must learn to be tolerant to one another.

Enjoy your magic and live in harmony.

I think you missed the point totally!

Bob, you are mistaken. This is not a personal vendetta against any singular person. I couldn't care less about this so called businessman whose business ehtics you obviously admire. Don't know him or have never met him...

My singular point was the control (or lack of) exercised by the owners of the forum in dealing with critical issues relating to our artform, Bob... relating to our beloved artform...or don't you care? Before it was DVD piracy...now this...

Have you looked at the international forums on what has happened because of this and how this has reflected on us?

Please do. Then take a step back, put on your magician's hat and see how this has and will continue to affect the image of us magicians in Malaysia.

You are so right ... I should have kept this frustration to myself and gone ahead and continued doing my own thing. But when you frequently work in the international arena like I do and get questioned about the stuff that is going on here, that's when, as a Malaysian, the embarassment starts. If you are a true Malaysian you'd understand this.

But you are right ... enough said.....none of my business...

All the best...to all of you!

Happy magic-ing.

Obviously something will have to be done to further prevent the tarnishing the MMF and Malaysia.

I'll discuss with the admins of the MMF and see if I can propose some policy reviews. This experience is a bitter one and I do not want to see the MMF or the Malaysian name go through this again.

all the best and hopefully such thing does not happen again.

We'll discuss this after our meeting on the 3rd.

There's lots we have to discuss and foresee some BIG changes in the forum.

Meanwhile, to those who contributed and state ya views, thank you for your concern.

Best regards,
Brendan

Dont mind me saying this, but then since when is legailty a good judgement of morals?

Punishable by law = immoral acts?
Not protected by law = moral acts?

If thats the case, I think Ghost Kings would not be deemed a rip off of Lee Asher's stuff. Maybe MM is a great company who is also trying to help fellow magicians who cant afford the more expensive Asher's Twists. However, I still feel that its not very ethical or moral to release it without consulting Asher. Althou the law cant protect Asher here <_<

I think that there is nothing wrong if a businessman wishes to earn money. Theres what businesses are built for. To make profits. Hopefully, it is approached in as ethical as possible ^_^


PS::

However, I do know someone that is out who intends to help fellow magicians and the main aim is NOT to make money. To say otherwise would be considered a 'personal' attack by some and you might soon find yourself receiving a legal letter. So please be mindful what you post, TQ* B)

Maybe someone in this forums who main aim is Not to make money.
It is really hard to survive in this industry.
Is NOT making money is spoiling this industry?

First of all, I would like to say thank you to Andy, for keeping it subtle. :)

And secondly, I would like to say I really appreciate the kind, and not so kind comments in the preceding posts, I respect those views, and at the least, you folks are entitled to your own views.

Thirdly, thanks Bob, for a very neutral opnion that you've stated in reply to Anslem; I've never met you before, I've never spoken to you as yet, but I really appreciate the content of your reply. Not to say that I'm glad you're speaking up for me, no no. Obviously not. But just to let you know that your views are indeed very enlightening, AND FAIR, especially in this trying times of us having to justify (again,and again) and defend the integrity of one product, versus the vissisitudes of life.

This time round, I'm gonna make it short and sweet : I've already promised Aloy to take a few notches down in the previous thread on WPK vs IPK, and I don't see any rhyme nor reason why I should start another one here.

The existence of the IPK is merely to cater to those who would find it a little financially trying to get the WPK. As well as to cut cost with regard to overseas shipping and handling, and not neglecting the fact that some members have intimated to me that they do not have the luxury of placing online orders for magic products due to not owning a credit card.

And yes, of course, in the course of our research, production and marketing aspects for the IPK, we have incurred considerable costs and the subsequent sale of the IPKs do, in a way, recoup our cost as well as garner us a nominal margin as well. (This is just part and parcel of doing business, and very well said by Bob too -> "...damn good businessman.")

Ethics wise, we would also like to take this opportunity to infrom all of you that, we have already wrote a letter in to Joe Porper with regard to the Paramount Card Clip - we have already decided to cease production of the Paramount Card Clip as a sign of respect to Joe. Joe was very positive about it, and he "...thank and appreciate us doing the right thing."

That said, my point here is, sometimes, like what Aloy had mentioned before, self-censorship or control is still the key to managing and preserving one's integrity. The IPK, to us, was never an issue and would never be. But the Paramount Card Clip does encroach into the sale of Joe's Card Clips, as well as a DIRECT REFERENCE AND COMPARISON to his signature product. Moreover, considering Joe's age as well, we really find it hard to continue the production aspect of the Paramount Card Clip without having the guilt haunting us each time we decide to perfect our card clips, at the expense of Joe's.

Nevertheless, I'm also pleased to inform you folks that we are at present negotiating with Joe on the production of another version of the Porper Card clip, which Joe had agreed, should the project proved successful, we could have the exclusive rights to the distribution and marketing of the new clip.

Lastly, in the event that Aloy, and the moderators here feel that Anslem is right, with his initial posting, and that we should just accede to his demand, that freedom of speech be damned, and to toe the (his) line, then please delete all my postings, give me a warning, and permanently boot me out of this MMF Forum. I have no further say in this as a member, and also because I do not wish to be labelled as this, or that, in the course of just stretching my level of creativity and imagination - too far.

Erhmm, sorry Reno, but I am quite certain that I was definitely not refering to you in my post.

Please feel free to click here should you have any doubts ^_^

Dude, that's so uncalled for... well... the site itself may not be the most active of sites... but the magic annexe has it's regular meets and, no offence to anyone, but i went for the meet once... and it was probably the best magic gathering i've been to... so, just because the site's not that active, doesn't mean the members aren't active as well...

@Andy : I don't get you. You were obviously referring to me, but with the only exception that you DID NOT REFER to me by name. And so I thank you for keeping it subtle. That's all.

That said, I still don't understand why you link it back to the previous thread?

Let's not start it again, ok. Thanks.

Sukyi, the comment was with reference to the site, not the members per se. My apologies if the meaning has been misconstrued, it was a matter of Fair Comment on my side.

However, have you noticed the thread starter's unkind use of words? Not just with reference to me, but calling Mods & members "spineless?" I'll be frank with you, the term "spineless" does not really sit well with the Chinese, and is more of an insult than anything else.

both sides also don't need to be like that la... i mean, Anslem already said he should have kept it to himself... if one for one attacks keep going on, mmf will never be at peace, right? chill out la, Reno... sometimes, it's better to just hold some things in...

First of all, thank you Anslem, for your insights and comments.
Let me assure you, that the moderators team of MMF are an incredibly dedicated lot which has sacrificed tremendously for the well-being of the forum. They have more than once rubbed local magic stakeholders the wrong way for the sake of their beliefs unwaveringly.
As such, i believe due respect is in lieu to the moderators of this forum for a job well done to the utmost of their abilities under such circumstances.
They have gone out of their way to run the place to the best of their abilities, i do not feel that attacks on this administration is fair.
Your suggestions and comments however, are appreciated and will be taken into considerations.
I would like to assure you that much more thought has been put into the relevent subjects in both the moderators meeting room and the protected sections of the forum than it appears to the public. We are looking for the best way to implement an impartial and level forum for the good of all magic lovers. Bear with us as we are finding the grounds from which we want to push this thru. We are looking at this from a policy/forum rules level as opposed to a micro-management level.

And for Reno, you are now clearly out of line. Please ask yourself what have you contributed to these forums other than provide gunpowder?
Don't stir shit unless you want some on yourself. I kid you not sugar....
Here's a little insider, it is no secret that I personally do not believe in freedom of speech and/or democracy (give me benign dictatorship any day). The authority of the moderators and forums rules takes precedence over freedom of speech any day.

To everyone else, I am deeply grateful for everyone's thoughts and concern on the matter. Coming from a legistration position, we are looking to affect the changes from a policy/rules position as opposed to taking this down on a case by case. Bear with us, we are working on it.....

Cheers

aloy,
I didn't buy anything and don't know reno as well. but he did provide information [pricing] this lead me as guide line when i want to buy some props in malaysia. or you can think like reno himself make a magic trend like more people enjoy magic and perform magic maybe this not contribute to the forum.

what about those fellow like me just want to learn magic and without single contribution? or those fellow come to here what to learn this learn that or buy this buy that?

do you think this be fair to reno?

To Anslem Roy,

Intellectual properties, since when this related to money? It's an 0 cost and it just an idea.

Ford invent a 4 wheel car, do you think ford can sue Toyota "hey, why you copy my idea, my car is 4 wheel you should come out with a 6 wheel or 3 wheel, definete not 4 wheel". *this case happen when Apple sue Microsoft selling the first GUI Windows 1.0, Apple sue Microsoft invent a GUI and prevents Microsoft continue doing so and now who is the winner? Originally the GUI idea are come from Xerox both Apple and Microsoft steal Xerox idea.

*what you expect a magnet ring can do? remote your car? record your voice?

Well, the presence of lurkers is well documented and expected not just in this forum but any online communities. The so-called "silent majority".
But i tire very quickly when significant contributions to discussions is lacking yet there is a consistant stirring up of emotional threads which often borders on personal attacks. Just ask the 302...something something number guy how many times we restricted his posting rights while he was with us. B)

BTW...IP is highly related to money, but that's another story....

interesting and how is it be end?

Think before you talk. IP is to protect the people who have the initial idea and spend TIME and MONEY in inventing something NEW to the market. Yea, it did not just involve money, because it involves more of TIME and HARDWORK as well.

Think again why Cherry QQ got sued. Think again why MyVi which look 90% same like a Sirion/Boon/whichever daihatsu model is not getting any shit from this. This is because the WAY they collaborate to work things out.

I'm glad that Reno deal with Porper regarding the clip. This is the least we can do, to show our respect and passion for the inventor.

Reno, I dont intend to start another arguement as it would serve no purpose. No worries here. But just for clarifications:

I linked it back because I wanted to make it clear that I cant possibily be refering to you as I honestly (no offence intended) still find the IPK to be lacking in terms of ethics.

Finally, suffice to say that I knew who I was refering to in my post more than anyone else. I do know more than 1 magic dealer and businesses are protected by the law too. ^_^

Anslem seem to be disappointed due to too many unethical dealers. I am merely trying to tell him that I agree with his assumptions to a certain extent as there are still some really ethical ones out there who do not sell imitations or rip offs. Hence, do not give up faith in such people.

My sincere apologies if my post misled you into feeling that I have changed my views on the IPK or that I was refering to you. :mellow:

I think it is fairly common for lurkers in any forums. I believe MMF was created so that magicians have a place to share their thoughts, discuss effects, etc. The main emphasis of MMF was not to be in the marketplace. It was a bonus given by Aloy and his group of moderatorrs. Hence, it is understandable if the team of moderators get annoyed when people sign up and the first thing that they do is post in the marketplace of their wares.

We cant stop such acts as moderators are also humans and that they too have their own daily lives and we cannot expect them to be monitoring the forum 24/7. This is hardly fair.

However, since Anslem brought this matter to them, I am sure that Aloy and his moderators will look into this problem. The immediate locking of the marketplace was proof of their efficiency and decisiveness in where the main bulk of the problem is in.

Best Regards

I think you confuse yourself, please re-read my earlier post.

You were obviously holding the same views, but at least you did not make reference to me -> hence I said I thank you for keeping it subtle. That's all.

Got it?

erhmm, Sure thing Reno. :unsure:

I was obviously only refering to dealers that are ethical and to those that feel that Ethics DOES play a part in the magic industry. Of course, if Reno fits these descriptions, he would automaticaly be included too. Hopefully this clears the air. ^_^

Are the following assumptions right?

1. This is a public forum BUT personally owned (as in registered and operation expenses paid for).

2. Moderators are volunteers invited by the owner to help run the forum BUT are not paid.

3. The rest of us are here courtesy of their labour of love (time and and money too) as guests.

4. MMF (is a forum and not a club) and technically, there is no MMF membership but merely MMF forumites (unless whoever came up with MMF forms a club).

5. MMF's position / guidelines are clearly given.

If so, it seems logical to me therefore that

1. Since it is a a public forum, I am free to post my comments, opinions and even grievances. This is a privilege extended to me by the graciousness of the forum owners / moderators.

2. HOWEVER, since i have paid no subscription fees, I have no rights over how the forum is run (but again I am free to suggest, challenge etc. as this privilege is given to me)

3. So, if I don't like the way the forum is run or managed, I should just leave EVEN IF I think the forum owner / moderators are unfair etc etc.

It would seem that Anselm has said his piece and it has been accepted by the forum owners / moderators in good faith. How they choose to respond is up to them (and Anselm recognizes this). If Anselm doesn't like the final decision, he is free to leave (and it is obvious he is ok with this, as he never really was here anyway).

If Aloy (who seems to be the owner cum moderator) chooses to ban anyone, it is his right. Forumites are extended privileges not rights. (There is a difference and on a side note, we need to understand that even in some countries, citizenship for some is a privilege not a right, hence it can be revoked :( )

4. What people who post on the MMF forum should not be taken as representing the position of MMF (the official position of MMF is stated quite clearly). So, whoever lurks here should keep this in mind.

5. The main issue right now is how the official position is interpreted and enforced. Give the owner / moderators some time to work things out. Advice and give your input if you feel strongly about something. They have asked for such input and have been generally very mature in how they have handled harsh words (I personally am not sure I could handle the situation as well as the situation it is very emotionally charged). For lurkers, please realise that MMF is very young and when Brandon (correct me if I am wrong) wanted to start MMF, he struggled to work on the guidelines, visiting other fourms etc to see how MMF can best be run.


My input for what it is worth (I am not imposing my values on anyone, though I hope that it will be considered - or not whyt bother posting, right?)

1. There is a difference betwen what is legal and what is ethcial. What is legal is not necessarily what is ethical.

2. Ethics is always based / grounded on some philosophical or religious system / set of beliefs / presuppositions / values. Each has to decide for himself / herself. BTW, I do not mean that everyone necessarily has a clear written out system. It is just that everyone lives by certain presuppositions even if they have not taken the time to think through what they are.

3. In the issue of the high cost of magic in Malaysia (unfair exchange rate, postage costs etc) leading to piracy of magic in Malaysia, I think (IN MY HUMBLE OPINION that the argument is flawed as it is based on many FAULTY ASSUMPTIONS like since most comes from the West, they inventors / creator are filthy rich and are making unfair money / exploiting us "poor Malaysians" (more on that later)

The often used analaogy of Bill Gates and Microsoft's billions as an example (or something along this lines) is to use an inaccurate comparison. He has control (almost a monoply) over huge world wide markets but No magician forces us to buy their goods in order for us to survive. Most of us are hobbyists. AND I dare say, many here on this forum have loads of money to spend and are not even working in the marketplace, earning money.
The issue is not so much NO MONEY, CANNOT AFFORD but a matter of WANTING A BARGAIN and KIASUNESS in wanting as much as I can.

4. On the issue of Intellectual property, it is easy to dismiss as irrelvant or a small matter etc because we are not personally making a loss. I have doubts that any local pro magician here, would for example produce a DVD of his own personal magic secrets he spent years of his life creating and perfecting to sell in the Malaysian market? He will sell a handful and the rest will be pirated stuff (and the profits go into the pockets of the piraters). If we invent / create something (it need not have anything to do with magic) and someone "steals" the idea, concept, pattern / specs from us without our permission, we would be livid, even if he does it legally. Remember the ad a year or so ago on TV reminding Malasyians to copyright their products, inventions? (The one with the lady selling her home made product and brand and the guy who steals the recipe, mass manufactures and drives her out of business)

I mean, surely, we have experienced something similar to IP stealing albeit in a small way and been at least frustrated if not just plain disgusted. Like an idea you came up with being presented in a meeting by someone else as his own. Or you taking the initiative to do something and someone else takes the credit for it. Or after putting in a lot of hard work in a project and the chairman doesn't even acknowledge your contribution ... etc. How much more if you created something to earn a living and someone else swoops in and cuts dep into your profits?

5. On MMF "heated debates / fights". We all make mistakes and we will often change positions as we grow older. So we need to keep this in mind. We need to leave the past mistakes behind (but also make ammends for past mistakes or it will come back to haunt us) and move on. After all, don't you hate it when your mother or aunt or whoever reminds you of the mistakes / indiscresions you made when you were a kid? (As if that is still how you behave!)

Ok, end of sermon :lol:

Got other things to do.

Amen to that... B)

I like Paul's way of thinking. Got through to my head. Thanks for your views, Paul! :)

Paul,

Can we put your post up on the website?

? I am sorry, I do not understand your question? Do you mean on the MMF blog thingy? If so, sure, go ahead. I put this on a public forum, so it's already open for all to see.

A reminder to the mods: the moment this "friendly discussion" gets out of hand, we better move it somewhere private.

We do not want to wash our dirty laundry in public.

I myself do not want to venture any opinions on this matter. The only thing I'd like to urge my fellow magicians is : Do The Right Thing For The Art.

PS - Thanks Anslem for your post. It should give everyone a few points to ponder.

Kenny, Bob is giving his opinion. Beware of you word if you agree what Baalan said. little boy.

It's really take me time to search, Are you refer to?

More details

Does this related to MyVi which look 90% same like a Sirion/Boon/whichever daihatsu model ????

Further more, Intellectual Property is an umbrella term for various legal entitlements which attach to certain types of information, ideas, or other intangibles in their expressed form. The holder of this legal entitlement is generally entitled to exercise various exclusive rights in relation to the subject matter of the IP. The term intellectual property reflects the idea that this subject matter is the product of the mind or the intellect, and that IP rights may be protected at law in the same way as any other form of property.

I know it take time and hardwork and the cost to get the end product being done. The process may involve high investment, does that mean must get high return? Is only depend the way or how smart are you to protect your IP to get high return.

so tired will continue
and about the ring I haven't will go through this. Will do some research.

Kenny,

You should heed your own advice.
If you don't like how Aloy runs this forum or any of us mods for that matter,
you should leave too.

I'm sick of the direction of this thread is going.
From the positive, its becoming another negative thread that won't do the craft any good.

I'm locking this.
Not happy with my decision ? Don't like the forums? Arh...wait, let me quote you...

"You don't like the forum, don't participate"