Me and Sukyi were MSNing,debating about the above issue on the wee hours of Friday morning from 2am+ till almost 4am.

Our discussion was very INTERESTING. We shot out points directly to support our stands.

In a nutshell of our discussion :

Sukyi --> always provides ideas that opening a magic club will definite create explosure. It defeats the real meaning of magic.Magic should be kept secret.

Jeremy--> try to illustrate his thinkings by giving examples that opening magic club brings more benefits than harms.

WHO SHOULD STAND OUT?


Our debate download link : (link removed)

What are your opinions guys ?

With all due respect, please do not post a chat log that involves me all over the internet without first telling me. I urge you to take it down.

I guess is very very rude to post up chat log without consent by the other party. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Isaac

Jeremy your msn-ning sessions includes you and sukyi therefore in my opinion is best to ask sukyi first before posting it up :wacko:

With all due respect Jeremy, what I feel, most importantly, when it's about magic is ethics, respect for your fellow magician and respect to the craft. If you don't realise that you have seriously disrespected a fellow magic hobbyist's rights to privacy, how do I put it, I don't think you should run a magic club yet.

Well, a good example of a way to opening a magic club is what has been done by Mr Anslem Roy, via a forum and meeting up.

However, if your idea of a magic club is that of a society in a school/college/university, I would advise you against it. Magicians are few and far in between, so there will be several obstacles:

1. Not enough people - most schools/unis have a set minimum number of members before you can call it a society
2. Funding - where are you going to get the cash to hold events?
3. People who come just for fun and are not really interested - exposure. I feel that I am more laid back about exposure compared to the others, but this really is stretching it a bit too far.

So, my best advice would be, instead of opening a local magic club, go join one instead. There are many in the UK, not sure about Malaysia, although the quality may vary. Of course, to find any local magicians in your area, just go to a forum, and if they're interested in interacting, chances are they'll be in the forum then you can all meet up. If not, the local magic shop. If not, I don't know anymore haha.

It is impossible to find people who are really dedicated to magic, as you need to be to be a decent magician. We have enough show-offs on youtube as it is.

P.S. I know the 'to be to be' part is a bit confusing but I still think it's gramatically correct. Try reading it a few more times.

There's really nothing wrong with starting up a Magicians Society at your University/college etc
Things will start out slow of course, but you'll have to be able to manage everything
such as getting funds, organizing events, planning a teaching scheme etc.
you'll need to sell yourself during the orientation week period and stock up on supplies for your club members as they'll need starting supplies. Club fees *yearly* should easily cover the cost.

Opening a public club on the other hand is ill-advised as there is whole mountain of other things you need to consider (advertising, contacts etc) <_<
So try to stay away from public societies...let the IBM handle those...

So if you feel like starting a little club of your own, I suggest just doing it at the university clubs & societies level. If you do start a club, you'll have to put a lot of time and dedication into running the club, and go to every meeting and not be discouraged even though maybe only 2-3 ppl show up every meeting.

For the people that believe its 'exposure', its all a matter on structuring what you're going to teach, its really quite simple.
You'll have to encourage them to do a bit of independant research if they wanna learn more, and offer to help them out if they have problems understanding a trick or sleight they learnt while researching. For this you'll need a fairly good understanding of Magic (which im sure you would have since you wanna start a club).

So all things considered if you think you wanna start a club, I say go for it.
I encourage it IF AND ONLY IF you are confident it will survive.

Thank you for taking down the link.

Well, in response to Amane's post, you'd better check with the university/college before trying to set one up.

Why? As I said previously, sometimes, there are certain requirements. At the university which I go to, to start a club you must have a minimum of 30 members etc. So, get things checked out first before you start one.

Magic is a very, very specific hobby, one made harder even more so by the use of secrecy, so I don't think that there will be a lot of people. There might be in the beginning, but as the year goes on, the number of people who turn up for meetings will decrease dramatically. Be prepared for that. It happens in any club/society.

It will take up a lot of your time, energy, and maybe even money.

I apologise if I sound very negative, I'm just trying to be practical.

I don't think it would be wise to start a magic club, like what Sukyi said, it will only create more exposure

What are you going to teach?unless you are a professional...who are you to teach?
What if those who joins gives up halfway ? more hecklers then?
If you say the club is only open to magicians, then why not just have a gang who meets up often instead?

posting up the chatlog history withouth one's consent is really rude..and if you can't even respect one's privacy, how are you going to prove to us that to respect the art then?

i'm sorry if i sounded abit harsh.

yukiko

It is very difficult to judge who is right and who is wrong

I once had that ambition to set up a magic club( but my original idea was make it a small division of a larger club called the "Strategy club" which comprises board games, card games, card tricks ..etc")

But the exposure we have in youtube, metacafe, internet, piracy is driving almost all the professional magicians crazy, they just dont appreciate all the intellectual works of the masters
So i guess many of us here dont really like to see more exposure expending to laymen anymore.

OT abit :True story, imagine my friend,who just purchased self tying shoelace, performed to his classmates, all WOW!!.
Second day, his friends came back to him and say, ceh, i know how is it done!
Dont you feel very heartache for such case?

Below are my personal opinions:
""If you say the club is only open to magicians, then why not just have a gang who meets up often instead?"( quoted Yukiko)

Yea, if it is mainly for magicians, why not just gather magicians and have a gathering like mmf college gang??

Why must we make it an official club that is recognised by college?? That the college/ Uni may have the rights to influence or interfere activities going on in the club

And nobody has the right to determind who is pro and who is not
Unless their name is recognised among the local community or internationally.
If you want to run magic lessons, what material you have to teach? are you really good enough to teach the pass, the dl, the f*r*e??

Since so many things to put into consideration, why not we just stick to MMF, an online magic club for all magicians nationwide??

Let's not kid ourselves.

It's about glory. Someone wants to be the first guy to start up something, so that someday he will be remembered for it.

I'm loathe to elaborate on this, even though I have a lot to say. Better let you guys interpret this yourselves.

Play nice, now.

Well if you have enough knowledge, you're more than qualified to teach...
I dont see why you have to be a proffesional to be able to teach magic
frankly, I see many working proffesionals lacking in technical skill (just my view)
and dont have a wide enough skill base to be able to teach <_<

Starting a magic club at the university/college level is very much like a chess club or maybe a board games club. If there happen to be experienced magicians joining then they can share their knowledge, newbies can pick up a thing or 2.
It benifits everyone on the whole.

I really can't see why everybody dotes on this notion of 'exposure'
you're not really exposing anything....if you're charging people a membership fee, I think its fair game to say that its okay to teach as you like it.

All you have to do is encourage them to do independant research (youtube, MVD)
then they will see some sleight that stumps them, then they will ask you about it, then you can suggest them a place where they can find out more about it and so on. It's all a matter on how you wanna teach the magic to the newbies. Those that are already magicians can help out teaching and also share and obtain some new ideas with other members. -_-

I really don't know how to judge whether a person is professional enough to teach or not.

In my opinion, starting a chess club or board games club is different from starting a magic club. Why?because of exposure to those hecklers and those people that learns magic just because they want to learn the secret without putting much effort to actually practice. They practically want to know how the particular trick is done. We are pratically grooming a whole new breed of hecklers if not carefully supervised.

It is ok if they really want to learn and get into magic. If they really put effort and get some basic sleights down, i believe most members in this forums are really helpful provided you must show them whether did you attempt to help yourself or not?

About the exposure thingy its really sensitive thing to talk about. Ok if you are charging. how much will you charge?what are you going to teach your members in the club?then again whether the person that created the magic club. Is he good enough to teach other people?

Encouraging newbie members to research on youtube etc to find for exposure is not the right thing to do. In my opinion, I think it is better to recommend them to buy a beginner dvd or book. For example, born to perform dvd and royal road to card magic book. When I first started magic late last year i was lucky to have met some of mmf members. I started learning how to respect the art and not to support piracy.

Anyways is just my opinion. No Offense :)

Just trying to be nice

"Well, if you say as long as you have enough knowledge, you are more qualified to teach."

Does it mean that if i am totally new in magic, whom just bought card college series, read them, know how the sleights and secrets are done, THEORITICALLY, without further practicing and mastering the skills, without good presentation skills and patters, am eligible to set up a magic club, charge membership fees, and conduct a course??

Someone saw some exposure clips in youtube, can he be considered to have the knowledge to teach??

Btw, performance clips in youtube is alright, i just cant stand those exposure clips,
Think, is it fair for someone who learn a trick in youtube for free which the rest paid us$30 for it???

Just my opinion too, no offense

In my opinion.. im with Amane.. anyone can learn magic or learn sleights....

Having a book or a DVD or looking at tutorials and stuff from youtube isnt going to help one master the skills or presentation involved unless he or she practices and master it.

Not any tom, dick and harry can do tat kinda stuff. They may be exposed to the secrets but they themselves cant do it.

Exposure.. yeah it sux... but wat can we do with the WWW these days...

Man... magic wasnt like that when it first started.... but now... if you dont research... then u're missing out.

Personally i dont go youtube or watever to look for magic tutorials because honestly a lot of them sux or alot of the magic tutorial in there sux. Most of them cant even do the trick well and they think they are like so good and do a tute for the effect.

If u are a long time or seasoned magician... u wont be going to utube for FREE TUTES (magic wise). Begineer may find it useful but again... they may be learning the sleights wrongly though... coz of the person teaching it..

Oh well... in the end it all comes to personal choice. U wanna pay to learn.. they go pay and learn it right. Cant afford but really wanna learn? well... no body's stopping u....

There are only a few people on youtube whom i subscribe too and most of them dont do tutes... they just upload their performances... even if they are tutes.. they are Flourish tutes... lol.. but i go else where for that kinda stuff too..

Cheers,
Brendan

""Not any tom, dick and harry can do tat kinda stuff. They may be exposed to the secrets but they themselves cant do it. ""

:P Brendan, that's the problem, you wont want them go about telling others, HEY i know how is it done!!!!!
thats why, to minimise these cases, magic should only be conduct to those who are really enthusiastic about the art
Protect the art, protect our magic :P

By the way this thread is talking about setting a magic club in college..haha

Well nobody is asking you to start a magic course or anything
I am referring to a university level club i.e. a more social type club
when I say "if you have enough knowledge, you're qualified to teach" is a personal kind of thing.
If you YOURSELF feel that you have enough knowledge, enough experience or have enough ways to obtain information then it should be fine.

Some people talk about "oh they want glory for starting a club"
I disagree. I am currently running the Melbourne University Magicians Society.
It has been running for a many years, long before I started, but nobody actually knows the person who started it. A few of the members have graduated and moved on to professional level, but they still come back from time to time and give some free tips and advice. This is because they love the club and they love magic. If you are able to cultivate this kind of mood, then you have succeeded. The whole purpose of a magic club is to have ppl that love magic or are interested in it gather and have fun. The most important thing is to have FUN.

For the people that keep pushing the issue of exposure, it is unavoidable. Youtube is FULL of free tutorials and exposure. How do you suppose a small magic club is gonna even begin to compare. Of course, reccommending the new members to buy books or certain videos is a always the best thing, but I can guarantee that researching on youtube will further help to deepen their interest in the art at the beginnning.

About the fees thing: Being a univeresity club, we have weekly meetings. We charge $10 per year (it may seem cheap but it always works out) and accumulate easily 100+ people joining up each year. We use that money to buy supplies for the club so the members can buy decks from us and not have to travel or look for a magic shop. On the surface 100+ new members per year looks like a lot, but by the 3-4th week there will be about 20 people. By the end of the year less than a dozen will remain. These are the few that have an actual interest in magic. Those that left earlier just wanted to check out the club and take 1-2 tricks back home so they can show their family or friends etc.

Like I said before its all about curriculum. I base my curriculum on teaching tricks that emphasize on performance. Simple self-working stuff or at maximum 1 sleight per trick. Then during session time I will show them a few tricks that require heavy sleight of hand to shock them a bit and to make them feel like they need to learn more about it. Then i'll reccommend them to look up a good book or a video to learn some of the sleights involved then we can work on it together the following week. I also regularly hold performance meetings i.e. a whole meeting just for the members to perform. Anybody that goes up to perform gets some free stuff and the best performance gets a nicer prize (usually a gaff deck or something).
Money for the prizes are all provided by the club from the fees that we collected at the beginning of each year. We also use the money to buy DvDs and books for the club library so the members can borrow them.

As you can see it's not hard to manage a club if you really love doing it. Even though i've been doing magic less than 2 years, i've been doing whatever I can to help out at my uni club.


Sorry for the essays :lol:

Dear Jeremy,

You are on the verge of crossing the line, and i do not mean just by our loose standard of internet chatting etiquette, which I'm pretty sure you did not get the handbook. I was wondering what were you thinking when you were posting the chat log, that typing was too much the trouble, and like an average Malaysian Joe, decided to cut and paste? Brilliant. Oh and btw, i don't think i need to emphasize that what your doing is absolutely rude/impolite/uncouth and the list just goes on. The rest before me has ensure of that.

Have u seriously thought of the pros and cons of putting up a club? Sure, we all want magic to reach out to the public, but in this case, it can only lead to exposure! Sure, i understand that you want more magicians in Malaysia and for out standard to rise, yada yada.

Picture this : what happens when you do raise a club from scratch, and get the necessary agreement from the college and funding. Everything goes well, until suddenly, you're asked to do a small performance. And on the night of it, no one seems to be interested in watching you. And you know why? It's because bloody hell, they know the basic, what's to stop them from learning the advance steps?

Picture this : You perform in front of girls, and oh so everything is going well. Then u start drawing a crowd. You're self esteem soars coz now, your their main focus! And all of the sudden, someone from the back shouts how it is done!! And all because they learned it from their friends, who are in the clubs.

Look, it's a ll noble what you're doing. But u can't stop human nature of being curious. Scientists came up with the material called plastic; which is suppose to replace the depleting resources of mother nature. Can u see what's happening now? We don't respect Mother Nature, and we're abusing and taking her for granted!

This WILL happen with that magic club. Every thought about that? I have to say, you don't respect magic as an art. Rather as a way of getting attention which is not the main aspect of it, though u are suppose to draw an audience's attention. You just want it open, and to hell with everything else that follows. So long as you have your fame known as THE-ONE-WHO-STARTED-IT-ALL.

Amane has some good points in his posts. I would like to address the issues in his posts, as well as some of the others.

Membership problem:
About the number of people joining the club, it is quite true and is as Amane said, which I have said myself too. However, we must also look at the society, culturally and other aspects, in which we are trying to start the club. I personally do not think that a Malaysian society is very conducive to the starting of a magic club. Do feel free to try, remember to show them your best magic, try to draw them in and get as many people to sign up and pay, even though they won't join the meetings, hehe. Force payment on the spot.
Membership problem - kind of solved

Exposure problem:
A lot of us are thinking: EXPOSURE! Myself included. However, as Amane said, this problem can be solved by starting slowly, with self-working tricks first AND also emphasising that performance is also very important for the presentation of a trick, not just the mechanism. DRILL this into their minds. Encourage them to come up with their own patter. By the 4th or 5th meeting I can guarantee you however great the initial number is, at most 20% will remain. (I'd even go so far as to say by the 3rd meeting actually) Once those who come for the first and second meetings see that there won't be any fast and easy ways, not will there be much exposure, at least initially, most of them will drop off. So they'll learn one, at most two self-working tricks. Yay to them.

Actually, first meeting: discuss what is the difference between performing magic and doing tricks. Show them the HUGE difference. Then maybe teach them one self-working trick, and ask them to practise it, come up with their own patter, and work on it throughout the second and third meetings. That'll weed through all the interested and non-interested ones. Remember to drop a few teasers here and there though, to keep them interested and coming back. If you're good with people, then you'll find out by the 4th meeting, amongst those remaining, who are the ones interested in magic and who are not. If not, get someone who is good with people and let them mingle and ask for their thoughts and opinions. Remind everyone constantly magic is not just fun but hard work too, but the results are worth it!
Exposure point taken care of.

Workload problem:
This is the main one, at least for me. You have to select a VERY dedicated committee to work with you, as there is a huge amount of work to do. Book rooms, organise weekly meetings, creating a mailing list and sending out e-mail, holding events, planning out the curriculum etc. This will take out a huge chunk of your time. Are you willing to do this? How about your committee members? You'll need people who are dedicated, can work in a team, NOT egoistic showoffs blah blah. Remember, organisational skills, not showmanship skills. They may be the worst performers ever, but if they can manage events etc, GET THEM! The best magician may not be the president etc.

Things might be a bit easier for Amane because it's already set up, but I strongly advise you to talk to Amane more, to see what problems he's faced, get help with the curriculum etc.
Workload problem - are you dedicated/free enough?

Glory?
Aww c'mon guys, give him a chance, maybe he's just really enthusiastic about magic, or maybe I'm just too optimistic about people XD But do read the others' comments as it's what they truly believe and don't ignore criticism. Instead, think of whether the criticism is just, and if it is, deal with it as fairly as you can. I believe that I have given you an example in my posts. (ego inflates XD) However, if you are in it for the glory, there are much easier things to do. e.g. just being a magician, ONE AND ONLY IN YOUR PLACE! MAGIC TAK! *lol* Being a committee member alone is hard work enough, setting up a club is immense! Talk to Isaac, he's set up his own business, organised events etc. You've got the respect the dude for all that. Learn from him.

I believe that setting up a magic club without TOO MUCH exposure is possible, but a lot of hard work is required, and there is not much glory in it. Being a leader always SEEMS glorious, but that's because people only see the glorious part of it, they never see the huge amount of work done in the process. A good example is in tv shows, where the lawyers go to court. Damn gaya, right? How long do you think they spent preparing those stuff in the huge bags? The tons and tons of document? Analysing and putting together arguments? Glory is not all it seems, my friend. (I'm still not saying you're in it for the glory, don't misunderstand me :P)

Fair comment I think, which hopefully balances both sides of the story. I apologise for the long post.

One piece of advice for you though, Jeremy. Always think through before acting or speaking. What are the possible issues/problems? Pros and cons? Handling people, which you will be doing a lot if you are setting up a magic club, requires a HUGE amount of tact, patience, respect etc. An example, just because someone shouts at you doesn't mean you shout back at them. Always be nice to people, even though they are horrible to you. Chances are, you will get their respect and trust eventually. If not, just be glad that you did not sink to their level. However, careful not to be used, as it's a fine line between being helpful and being used. Be firm about your opinions but be logical, if the other side has better arguments than yours, switch. Ooops, it turned out to be more than one piece, and they're hard to follow, but oh well, follow them and they'll take you far. (I think XD)

Added: I am VERY VERY sorry. I just had a look and saw how long my post is. And now it's two lines longer :lol: :lol:

Let me summarize.

Once someone knows the secret, irrespective of whether he can or cannot perform it, the feeling of wonder is gone. Magic is NOT juggling.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I'm saying it shouldn't be done when one is not ready. Think about it seriously and consider the implications.

I actually wrote a bunch of stuff with regard to jeff gan's statement, but in the end deleted all of it cos now I agree with Jeff.

Out of topic but .....

Oh well, AT LEAST STOP PROMOTING IT IN MMF !!!!???

If you really cannot afford a BMW?
But I really want it eh? So we go steal and rob to get it.
NO !!!!!
WE WORK HARD FOR IT.

WHAT IS MMF STAND FOR PIRACY AND EXPOSURE ???
WHAT IS THE MODERATORs STAND ON IT??
If the leader DO NOT have a strong stand on what we believe, you expect members to follow???

Back to Magic Club,
Do you think someone who do not know how to ask for permission before posting a chat log know how to handle all those problems we pointed out? :wacko:

Sorry if I being extremely harsh, the truth hurts, OUCH !!
Yes Sukyi, i am not handsome ... LOL.

Isaac

Jeff you said what i wanted to say in 2 sentence :)

It's ok... You're still a cassanova anyhow ;) hahaha

Referring to more relevant posts, just because you can find it on youtube, doesn't mean people are going to look for it! If you don't give them a reason to look for it, odds are, they're not going to bother looking.

Also, some of you are putting up your walls by saying that exposure is out there anyway. My question is... WHY CREATE MORE?

As mentioned earlier, a club can only be run by someone who is ready. Just because someone's spent RM500000 on props, doesn't mean he's ready to handle a magic club. Principles drag it all down. In Jeremy Fu's case, he didn't even have enough respect to ask/tell me before he put a chat log with me in it online. Need I say more?

Sorry for disappering these few days, I visited my friends for some days.

:ph43r: First and foremost, allow me to appologise to Sukyi for posting out chatlog without first noticing her. My reasons to my act is :

1) I thought I'd initially asked her whether or not to post out this topic in MMF
( I "topic" i mentioned I was refering to the chatlog ).This,however,is not what Sukyi thought. She taught it's only the "topic".
2) I thought by posting out the chatlog, people will get to understand deeper what Sukyi and I were trying clarify for the points.
3) I thought all ideas in the chatlog are meaningful and it should be viewed by people to justify.
4) I thought in the chatlog doesn't revealed anything personal like secrets,so again I thought it would be fine for posting
5) I thought posting chatlog is like "Quating" a phrase or sentences from replies, just only the chatlog was "too long".

Sadly from the first few feedbacks from repliers I knew all my " I thoughts" were wrong. Did I really 100% did the wrong thing ? I really do not know such things will occur- I mean no harm :( So again I shall appologise to Sukyi for I know she is offended. Will ya forgive me Sukyi :unsure: ??



Ahem,coming back to this topic, I shall now give my first reply to this red hot chilli topic of mine after reading almost every single feedback from you guys.

Before I further relate my ideas,below is the crusial and vital question for you to brainstorm and really think about it.

Opening a magic club is it 100% wrong ? Yes i mean literally 100%.

If your answer is NO but in some other logic sense of yours, you're trying to defend back and say that opening a club is wrong based on your personal opinions. Are your reasons in below ?

1) A magic club will somehow generate magic exposure to the public
2) A magic club will create more room for hecklers

If that is so, in one way one say magic club can be possilbe be created and in some ways you try to put an inbalance affirmation that opening such clubs is bad.

Let me ask you another simple question again :

"Opening a magic club brings more benefits than harms" YES OR NO ?


Generally,it does bring more benefits. I believe everyone agrees

If you say it no,explain to me why there exist many pretigious magic clubs glabally like Magic Circle which is founded in 1905 and Magic Castle ?

"The Magic Castle houses the Academy of Magical Arts.

The mission statement of the Academy of Magical Arts reads:

"The Academy of Magical Arts, Inc. has been and will continue to be the premier organization in the world dedicated to the art of MAGIC. We are an organization which promotes the art of magic, encourages fellowship and maintains the highest ethical standards. We provide a friendly environment where members and their guests can enjoy the art and each other's company. Our goals and objectives are to advance the art and promote a positive image of magic and magicians worldwide." "

The above phrases is quated from :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Castle


From all the feedbacks I notice, most people try to against the idea of opening a magic club because they believe this will lead to a destruction of the magical art. This really saddens me because they never really look at the positive sites which are way more brighter.

Sukyi you said : Why create more room for exposure

My comment : I'm creating a friendly environment for people to share the art of magic and in a way to tell them say no to exposure. ^_^

Adlan you said : It's about glory. Someone wants to be the first guy to start up something, so that someday he will be remembered for it.

My comment : I start a club just to be remembered for it ? Do you think I'm such a person ? I just try to promote something good to our malaysia college :mellow: a

Jeniffer you said : Have u seriously thought of the pros and cons of putting up a club? Sure, we all want magic to reach out to the public, but in this case, it can only lead to exposure!This WILL happen with that magic club. Every thought about that? I have to say, you don't respect magic as an art. Rather as a way of getting attention which is not the main aspect of it, though u are suppose to draw an audience's attention. You just want it open, and to hell with everything else that follows. So long as you have your fame known as THE-ONE-WHO-STARTED-IT-ALL.

My comment : I honestly think that such statements are rude. :angry: If i don't respect magic as an art,then what the hell am I doing for the past 6 years,learning the art of it ? The first thing that cross your mind is to directly say that the magic club can only lead to exposure then at the end you mentioned I only want fame. You do not really know me,do you ? Bare that in your mind, if one day you talk such statements to someone you don't know and he/she turns out to be a magician,you'll know the impact. Here I don't claim I'm a professional but at lest I understand the basic of how to politely talk to a person.

VincentP you said : Always think through before acting or speaking. What are the possible issues/problems? Pros and cons?

My comment : Asking about the pros and cons,this topic is meant for that purpose and that's the key reason why I opened it.I admit I act wrongly the first place but now I speak carefully based own my conscience after having read all the feedbacks.

Yukiko you said : What are you going to teach?unless you are a professional...who are you to teach?
What if those who joins gives up halfway ? more hecklers then?
If you say the club is only open to magicians, then why not just have a gang who meets up often instead?
My comment : I don't claim I'm a teacher. I consider myself a person who is willing to share things together if I find someone believe the same concept as me. I'm not gonna teach some hecklers how tricks are work out. Yes instead to have a gang, I plan to have a club. I believe working out with an officially club is better to have a gang,it's more plan-out. ^_^

Christopher Ng you said : Why not just gather magicians and have a gathering like mmf college gang??Why must we make it an official club that is recognised by college?? That the college/ Uni may have the rights to influence or interfere activities going on in the club

My comment : Think it more seriously,wouldn't it be better if there is a MMFMC,Malaysia Magic Fellowship Magic Club ? . An officialy club in Malaysia ?


OK...let me now start provide you guys with reasons why I want to start a magic club :)

After years of practicing magic and performing magic, I came across various types of people. Some people may be quiet in nature and some may be arrogant. But when perform magic,do you guys sometimes realise you can notice different types of characteristis emerge in them ? Imagine a good fren of yours whom you trust love telling the secrets out when you try performing. Yes ! This worlds exist such kind of homo sappiens with the type of attitude to try leak out secrecy. Thus, I believe by establishing a club will minimise such problems.

I try to give myself a chance to dare to give the first step in pursuing my dream. I'm not afraid of falling down.

Mr.Rueben is the Manager of Student Affiars Department in my college. He is a part time entertainer too,bringing happiness to people around him with his magic and acting. He has been doing this for more for years. When I entered the college in April, he discovered my talents in magic. Thus recently he suggested to me why not open a magic club for there are many magic lovers in the college and also to try to cultivate the real art of magic in it-He'll then be the club's advisor.

Same like most of you,I try to say..this will lead to exposure in the end.But he told me,with his assistance,he'll minimise such problems and in the end,people will benefits from the art of magic alone.

I made a deep consideration. I was thinking by opening a club, it brings more good or more bads. I knew my answer- it brings more benefits. It will only bring more bads if both me and Reuben run it badly and I say, I WILL NOT MAKE THIS HAPPEN. B) I even thought that after opening this club I may seek some advice from some of the MMF forumers.

However I am trully saddened by most of the feedback you guys gave me. Most of you were pointing fingers at me because I accidentaly did something wrong by posting a chatlog. Do you guys really think I did that purposely ? Do you know how my heart breaks when I see how you guys pointed out that way ?

Issac said : Do you think someone who do not know how to ask for permission before posting a chat log know how to handle all those problems we pointed out?

Sukyi : he didn't even have enough respect to ask/tell me before he put a chat log with me in it online. Need I say more?

Eventually,lets view this topic discussin in a simple way. If a magic clubs brings more benefit,lets do it. Do it with the right attitude,the right way in the right path with the right guidance when one is ready.

I really hope my 2 hours of typing this reply will clear all doubt. If you guys still stand firm on your choice/belief/doctrine. I have no other words to say.
For me alone,I believe I've won myself. Magic has been teaching me a lot of things and I am very happy to share with people. If you always think it the dark side,may the force be with you.

Lastly with regards to VincentP statement :
just because someone shouts at you doesn't mean you shout back at them. Always be nice to people, even though they are horrible to you

Well, I am always nice to people. Some may hate me,though. I stick to my own believe with guidance to the Lord's advice in Luke 6:27-Love your enemies.

Any misunderstandings generated,I apollogise once again. :!!:

Opening a magic club is it 100% wrong ? Yes i mean literally 100%.-quoted from Jeremy Fu.

so does it mean that opening a magic club is 100% right then?who are you to say whether it is right or wrong?people have different opinions..there is no such thing as 100 percent when it comes to things like that.

Jeremy Fu-
My comment : I don't claim I'm a teacher. I consider myself a person who is willing to share things together if I find someone believe the same concept as me. I'm not gonna teach some hecklers how tricks are work out. Yes instead to have a gang, I plan to have a club. I believe working out with an officially club is better to have a gang,it's more plan-out.

hmmm...seems to me like you have ESP powers since u can tell whether a person is a heckler, or that he would turn into a heckler in the future.

However I am trully saddened by most of the feedback you guys gave me.-quoted Jeremy Fu

Which leaves me in one small little question..
If..you are already standing so firm on your ground...

why ask for opinion then?

you asked for advice..we gave it to you..and then you go against everything we said.what's the point?

If you want to start, go ahead,No ONE is going to/can stop you

We are just giving opinion based on WHAT WE THOUGHT IS RIGHT

But, if you think you are able to handle it well, PROVE to us

And you will have our support and respect .

Omg, to think of setting a new club in college = another 20~50 ppl gonna know the art, another big bunch of magicians blooming and eventually mmf will be flooded too. haha

I didn't know you've been in magic for 6 years already :wacko: . Jeremy you are so gonna perform on the 4th of August.

Si fu, you sure must perform dude

I learnt less than 6 months, also may be performing

As they've already mentioned. You seem to have your mind set. Even with majority objecting to the idea, you still seem to think "Generally,it does bring more benefits. I believe everyone agrees".

Either you're just being ignorant, or you genuinely don't quite understand what we're trying to say.

Either way, you're not going to listen to us. Since, we're just here, there's no possible way for us to stop you. Just know, you won't have my blessing on this until you can prove you're ready for it.

While you're talking about the bible, when Moses was instructed to talk to the rock, he decided to take it upon himself and hit the rock instead. Things didn't work out so well for him, did they?

WAIT. Everyone take deep breath, hold for 10 seconds, breathe out.

Ok.

1. Everyone is making judgments about Jeremy Fu's character, i.e. no respect and big ego.

No respect: Jeremy, do you know why they all jump on you like that? Because they view that as a basic respect. If no basic respect, how can you have higher respect of that this art require? This is a valid point, but since you clarified it's a misunderstanding of topic/post, so this one I'll drop.

Big ego: Now, this criticism is unfair. So Jeremy may like to complain sometimes :P but that's just normal. I don't think there's anything he has posted here in the forum to show that he is a glory seeker.

2. Magic club - 100% right or wrong

There is no 100% right or wrong, as Yukiko said. It depends very much on the ppl who run it. Yes, you do run the risk of exposure but this can be minimised if you know how to. In the end, it'll be worth it.

Whether it brings more benefit or harm depends on who runs it.

Why do people think you are unsuitable to run it with a minimal risk of exposure? See point 1. To minimise exposure, talk to Amane, Anslem Roy etc.

3. You are not a teacher.

Magic clubs need a teacher, a leader, someone to guide them. If not you, then who? You need to find someone suitable. If not, progress will be excrutiatingly slow and people will lose interest. You need someone to set the track and make sure everyone progressing and not off track.

No teacher? No club.

4. Years in magic does not equal good.

I believe the statement speaks for itself. Just because you have spent a longer time in magic does not mean you are better for someone who was in it for a shorter time. You have to base it on your performance. Better entertainer wins.

5. Quote correctly

EH DUN LA LIDDAT. My quotes I already said is more of for character than for magic. Read properly before you quote. I also said that I am not implying that just because I said xxx means you don't have xxx (Dun dirty mind simply think!!)

I apologise if I offend anyone. I try my best to be fair and on the fence, which one of my friends once reminded me, is a very dangerous and uncomfortable position.

Added: 6. Heckler

Jeremy, it's hard to tell who may or may not be a heckler, or may turn into a heckler, as people are very hard to judge. So, that's one of the risks you'll have to learn how to take/handle.

7: Stop fighting! We're all grown-ups here. No need for stuff like this.

Please kindly refrain from posting stuff that is inflammatory or possibly inflammatory.

Quote Jeremy Fu:
If you were in my position,you see how people are saying these to you.
Yukiyo are you going to smile with joy ?

This is unneeded. This is what I meant, if someone shout at you, doesn't mean you have to shout back at them. Just an EXAMPLE. I'm not saying anyone is shouting at anyone.

Quote Jeremy Fu:
I ask opinion because I believe there are still many things I need to know. I against most of the advice doesn't mean I totally ignore them. The point is at least I know something else than my own points.

Now this is the kind of post I don't mind, as it's just stating your opinions, thoughts etc.

No other part of my post is edited.

Thank you Yukiyo,there's no such things 100%...I am of course nobody to say who is right or wrong.. did I mention what you guys said is wrong ? I didn't say mine was correct either. I just said what I believe is right. I will know the answer in the end.

Sorry I don't have ESP power.. Did i say i can tell whether a person is a heckler ? or that he would turn to be a heckler in future ? I just say I would not allow such people in the club.

I ask opinion because I believe there are still many things I need to know. I against most of the advice doesn't mean I totally ignore them. The point is at least I know something else than my own points.

If you were in my position,you see how people are saying these to you.
Yukiyo are you going to smile with joy ?

Thanks for your advice again.

Okie i agree i was a lil too hasty in making that judgement, and i'm sorry. But you gotta admit, things do get out of hand in life. They never, and i mean this, NEVER run according to plan!! So sure, u wanna talk about the benefits of it, but i'm sure u have thought about the limitation/weaknesses of such a plan. Have you thought of how to overcome them?

In the case of Magic Castle and Magic Annexe, the members there had to undergo an interview and possible probation before being admitted, and fully classified as a member. That way, potential hecklers and just-curious-people are taken out of the picture.

Look, as Sukyi said, we have enough exposure as it is. (eg. Youtube, Magicians Exposed... blah blah blah). If you wanna do this, seriously, and i do not mean 150% thinking about it. You gotta think more than that, like run through the whole plan over and over again before commencing. You gotta have a back-up plan for anything and everything that MIGHT occur!

And the reason i lashed out at you like that is because you didn't respect the privacy of the chat log between you and Sukyi ( no matter if there is private stuff being discussed or not), which brings me to question : If you can't respect something as simply as that, do you respect magic to be a secretive art? As it always has been for decades. (minus the few obstacles of exposure along the way)

Yes, exposure if something that we cannot avoid. And hecklers will always be there no matter what. So seeing that you're still bent on making this happen, try not to create more unnecessary problems than we already face.

You can't control humans, it's hard to tell what we'll do with our eratic ways

Once again, i sincerely apologize for the highly inflammatory words.

P.s. My name is JeNNifer, not JeniFFer.

How you "not allow" them when you cannot tell who? :D :D

I ... or We disagree ! I think and I beleive that your "I thought and I think and I believe" need to have some troubleshooting session.

It is hilarious to compare your college magic club with Magic Castle. :!!: :!!:
If you are a stand alone Magic Club, I might agree on doing so.
However, starting a College Magic Club is totally different story.
Do you know what I am trying to say? We have been through this, read through the thread again.

Yes. No.
Tell me you can unintentionally posted up a chatlog.

Btw Jeremy,
is ISAAC .. not ISSAC.

Isaac

My friend Isaac,

I can allow when after I came across and met such people. Of course once again I cannot tell if I don't come across such people and I will not allow such people once I came across. Isaac I believe you understand my meaning. B)

Then I shall cancel the "I believe" and correct the statement into " It does bring more benefits".

Do you understand that examples such as comparisons are made so as to simplify ideas ? If i talk talk talk alone and don't give examples,it would be boring,wouldn't it ? Of course it is hilarious to compare my college magic club with magic castle. Go ahead and laugh. I don't think it is funny. I know I will constantly make myself a better magician and I understand what you said. In fact I will not forget you in my life also. I'll remember what you said Isaac.

I can unintentionally post up a chatlog ? My explanations can be found in my long reply. I really mean no harm. Why would I do that to my friend ?

Thanks
Jeremy

My friend Jennifer,

I know Sukyi is your friend so when you notice someone do such things to her,you'll be mad too. Such things happened to me last time too. I understand also why Isaac,yukiko and you were offended indirectly. It's ok Jennifer ^_^

Also,i forgot to mention that the magic club which I want to establish is more on the stage magic. Like how to have interactions with audience just like how a comedy magic goes. It's more on performing arts. Ya of course we do share the basics of magic sleights.

Talking about thinking what will happen if the club fails to run appropriatly and backing up some emergency plans, I have already done some researches and plan-out some stuffs but currently they are not sufficient yet. I thought I could find people in MMF who support me can give me some ideas. I think I'll seek some other prefessional people in other forums. I heard from Mr.Reuben and VincentP that Magic Annexe will be helpful. Perhaps for this particular issue I'll ask them for advice.( but MMF forums seem active and i like active forumers :rolleyes: )

Thank you for your suggestion once again my friend.

I shall speak for Yukiko

Yukiko's name is YUKIKO, NOT YUKIYO ..

:wacko:

sorry for being busybody, but , start from respecting names :)

Paiseh I always type wrong :wacko: . I remember also I spelt another friend of mine Christofer . Aiks :wacko: ..

making a club that focuses on Stage Magic is rather difficult
not uncommon...just....you need a very experienced stage coach, dance choreographer, and an experienced stage magician as a guide
which I highly doubt you are (sorry if you feel offended by this)

As hard as I try, I cannot forsee a magic club just starting out to be teaching stage magic.....
My reccommendation is to concentrate on close-up and then slowly progress to stage.
In Taiwan, University magic clubs hold an annual stage show where all the graduating students are the performers. These clubs are closely tied to the public magic societies and therefore have adequate training.

Another problem you will face is funding...
It is far more difficult to run a magic club that focuses on big stage performing arts. Prices for stage props and effects are expensive.
Also you will attract a lot more attention and will frequently be asked to perform..(if you're being subsidised by the university)
Which I feel will require at least 1-2 years of intensive training to be good.
A starting out club will feel very pressured by this.

So my advice is to stay away from stage magic at the club level.....
leave that to the professional level people who actually have experience in doing stage magic and have the qualification to teach it.